Why Do We Lock Up So Many Young People?

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yep.

Odd, that.

you'd be a fool and a communinist to think they were related in anyway...

 

[The Black Hand]

you'd be a fool and a communinist to think they were related in anyway...

What about Autonomist?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

What about Autonomist?

car driving cunt

 

[The Black Hand]

car driving cunt

now that's just surreal.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

now that's just surreal.

no it's not. its perfectly appearent... waits for the penny to drop over a bad pun...

 

[lewislewis]

Because of links with the International capitalist class (also known as 'the ruling class'). I prefer describing them as they are, which is capitalist first ruling class second.

You're right, but don't the small European nations like Finland, Sweden, Norway etc have capitalist classes too?

I'm not knocking you, just wondering why the Europeans treat people with more respect.

Growing up I experienced alot of grief simply for being young. I imagine people younger than me now are going to have even more of a hard time.

 

[Socialist Cynic]

We lock up young people because, like the US, we have a massive and growing gap between the aspirations and opportunities of young people. There is widespread poverty and unemployment in selected ‘ghetto’ areas, allied to an expectation of wealth and a visceral hatred of those who don’t have it from all the major sources of mass information.

Psychologically, there is a self-acknowledged “underclass” which knows the ladder is greased that far down and understands that even prison is not quite as scary or difficult as living like a schmuck and trying to make good from nothing, while being hated/distrusted by everyone above them. Which experiences massive mental stress from that knowledge and from having to front up to everyone around, resulting in mental illness/breakdowns being commonplace and exacerbated by state politics which see medication as the cheap ‘solution’.

Sure there’s people who are just nasty, but very few of them are born. Most are forged in the shitty abandonment of entire generations of people, left to rot on a pittance of benefit and with nothing to look forward to.

 

[tbaldwin]

Why Do We Lock Up So Many Young People?

Because Politicians generally Politicos generally and the Media generally have abandoned millions of people in this country as hopelesss.
Left and Right in this country are united in their hopelessness when it comes to talking about Crime and Immigration...
Neither side really has much interest in ensuring that public money is spent effectivelly in helping disadvantaged people..

The present judicial and prison system is laughably useless.
Alternatives need to be looked at....But.....

 

[The Black Hand]

A) You're right, but don't the small European nations like Finland, Sweden, Norway etc have capitalist classes too?

I'm not knocking you, just wondering why the Europeans treat people with more respect.

B) Growing up I experienced alot of grief simply for being young. I imagine people younger than me now are going to have even more of a hard time.

A) Yes they do, but they are far less important in the scale of things to the capitalist world order. Prob before but definately after 1870 to 1913 Britain, the £, and its empire was the ruler of the world, after that America took over.

There are many and varied links still because of Britains links in the capitalist world order. London, New York and Tokyo house circa 135 out of 200 of the world multinational HQ's. Scandinavia has none as far as I know. London still has many world trading centres and the stock market is also a huge player. In short the US and UK have command and control capabilities on a world scale.

B) Yes - things are getting harder without a doubt.

 

[tbaldwin]

We lock up young people because, like the US, we have a massive and growing gap between the aspirations and opportunities of young people. There is widespread poverty and unemployment in selected ‘ghetto’ areas, allied to an expectation of wealth and a visceral hatred of those who don’t have it from all the major sources of mass information.

Psychologically, there is a self-acknowledged “underclass” which knows the ladder is greased that far down and understands that even prison is not quite as scary or difficult as living like a schmuck and trying to make good from nothing, while being hated/distrusted by everyone above them. Which experiences massive mental stress from that knowledge and from having to front up to everyone around, resulting in mental illness/breakdowns being commonplace and exacerbated by state politics which see medication as the cheap ‘solution’.

Sure there’s people who are just nasty, but very few of them are born. Most are forged in the shitty abandonment of entire generations of people, left to rot on a pittance of benefit and with nothing to look forward to.

Have to say i think that is a very good post.

 

[ViolentPanda]

We lock up young people because, like the US, we have a massive and growing gap between the aspirations and opportunities of young people.

True, but it's also the unfortunate case that in our recent history incarceration has been the first resort of choice for controlling the behaviour of children, whether that be in a "children's home" or a penal unit.

There is widespread poverty and unemployment in selected ‘ghetto’ areas, allied to an expectation of wealth and a visceral hatred of those who don’t have it from all the major sources of mass information.

I only wish there were something as potentially positive as "visceral hatred" being manifested, unfortunately, all I see and hear is nihilism.

Psychologically, there is a self-acknowledged “underclass” which knows the ladder is greased that far down and understands that even prison is not quite as scary or difficult as living like a schmuck and trying to make good from nothing, while being hated/distrusted by everyone above them. Which experiences massive mental stress from that knowledge and from having to front up to everyone around, resulting in mental illness/breakdowns being commonplace and exacerbated by state politics which see medication as the cheap ‘solution’.

Accurate, although too generalising for my liking. I'd argue that there is a continuum of people in "the underclass" where reaction varies from bemused acceptance of the status quo to the kind of stress you mention.

Sure there’s people who are just nasty, but very few of them are born. Most are forged in the shitty abandonment of entire generations of people, left to rot on a pittance of benefit and with nothing to look forward to.

And "the establishment" should be thanking their lucky stars just how benevolent most people are, or our political class would have been adorning lamp-posts long since.

 

[Socialist Cynic]

I only wish there were something as potentially positive as "visceral hatred" being manifested

I'm talking about the rich hating the poor, eg. Chavs.

reaction varies from bemused acceptance of the status quo

Yeah but those aren't (so much - bearing in mind it was a quick post rather than a definitive study) the ones being locked up - the incidence of mental health problems in prison and mass use of anti-depressant drugs to control young people* who can't cope was what I was referencing here.

*Not to mention illegal drugs being ever-present in the rap sheets and known crime-causes of most of those jailed - excessive drug use often being strongly indicative of its initial use as an emotional crutch rather than being the result of a disassociated spiral of addiction.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm talking about the rich hating the poor, eg. Chavs.

Sorry, my mistake.
Even there though, I think that it's more a case of many people having been "educated" into a contempt for "the poor", programmed by what we could loosely term "Thatcherism" here in the UK.

Yeah but those aren't (so much - bearing in mind it was a quick post rather than a definitive study) the ones being locked up -

They're as much a part of the inmate population as they are of the general population, in my (admittedly quite dated) experience.

the incidence of mental health problems in prison and mass use of anti-depressant drugs to control young people* who can't cope was what I was referencing here.

Fair enough, although chemical control isn't (as every generation since the Victorians has found out) very effective.
It does, however, provide a rather nice revenue stream for "big pharma".
As for the issues around inmate mental health, how even "damage limitation" can be enacted given the scarcity of staff and resources for dealing with it, I'm unable to see.

*Not to mention illegal drugs being ever-present in the rap sheets and known crime-causes of most of those jailed - excessive drug use often being strongly indicative of its initial use as an emotional crutch rather than being the result of a disassociated spiral of addiction.

Yup.

 

[Socialist Cynic]

Many prisoners have mental health problems. 72% of male and 70% of female sentenced prisoners suffer from two or more mental health disorders. One in five prisoners have four of the five major mental health disorders.

A significant number of prisoners suffer from a psychotic disorder. 7% of male and 14% of female sentenced prisoners have a psychotic disorder; 14 and 23 times the level in the general population.

Revised figures, collected by the Prison Service in 2005 show that 597 out of every 1,000 women and 50 out of every 1,000 men harm themselves while in prison.

It's pretty stark, over 2/3 having two major or more mental health disorders (how many have just the one is anyone's guess, though undoubtedly higher). I'd argue that mental health disorder is a sign of someone failing to cope with society as it stands and their place in it.

True, the checmical cosh isn't entirely effective at stopping crime (though it's more so than it ever used to be), but the state's presentation of it as them 'doing something' has severely retarded the development of alternatives - and indeed the development of autonomous working class activity within communities to solve their own problems.

 

[The Black Hand]

Have to say i think that is a very good post.

This is just Mertons anomie theory - it has been around for circa 60 years, and there are more modern varieties of it.

 

[Socialist Cynic]

Who's Merton?

edit: ah found it...

http://www.d.umn.edu/~bmork/2306/Theories/BAManomie.htm

Blimey that's pretty close - I was only doing a bit off the top of my head

 

[The Black Hand]

Who's Merton?

edit: ah found it...

http://www.d.umn.edu/~bmork/2306/Theories/BAManomie.htm

Blimey that's pretty close - I was only doing a bit off the top of my head

Well done. I like a man who is interested in ideas.

I particularly like Mertons descriptions and categorys of how people react in that situation...

 

[dessiato]

I think we should have abortion for up to twenty one years. That would solve some issues. Anyone under that age shouldn't be allowed.

 

[rover07]

Because they use knives, burgle homes, rape, steal, commit acts of violence and sometimes kill people.

Yes but apart from that.

What have young people ever done wrong?

 

[JimPage]

Well in Scotland, we dont, we have a youth justice system up here (Childrens Panel) which takes into account both deeds,and needs, and recognises that youth crime, on the whole, has a social cause,

 

[derf]

Because it's easier than adressing the flawed aspects of society that managed to produce them?

How jolly true my darling dot.

There is little crime here 'cos the kids are brought up to respect others and not dragged up as many are in the UK.
The little bastards that live next door to my poor mother are a case that proves the rule. 2 kids to 2 fathers who they never see and their mother is unsure exactly who the daddys were.
Mummy has no time for the brats so they are growing up wild. Pity the fucking world when they breed and have their own little bastards. What the fuck will they be like?

 

[The39thStep]

Partially because what passes for "rehabilitation", even within the much-vaunted youth justice system, is a mere nod and a wink toward the idea of actually bothering to engage with youth offenders on an individual level and possibly help them find their way past what is usually youthful stupidity and carelessness. Teach people how the consequences of their actions affect others, and a fair number of them won't re-offend: We know this from "restorative justice" studies over the last 30 years.

Of course, "restorative justice" isn't the sort of thing that makes politicians look tough, so it doesn't stand a chance of becoming mainstream.

but is in Youth Justice funnily enough.

 

[ViolentPanda]

but is in Youth Justice funnily enough.

It's certainly part of the arsenal, but I wouldn't (yet) argue that it's "mainstream" in terms of usage.

 

[The39thStep]

It's certainly part of the arsenal, but I wouldn't (yet) argue that it's "mainstream" in terms of usage.

Except that they have to hit a target of x interventions and each YOT has to have a restorative justice officer.