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Why do people get wanky about their choice of computer/operating system/console/etc?

jæd said:
I think that your resorting to insults shows you have no points worth making at all... Ho-hum... And I think that the rest of your reply shows you haven't ready any of my posts at all.
You know, i'm not one of the more prolific posters around here, but i've been around enough to notice you in other, non-computer related threads and you generally seem not to act like a complete idiot in those discussions. Is there something in your subconscious that makes you completely irrational when it comes to computers? Were you attacked by a PC when you were a kid, or something like that?
jæd said:
<unsubscribes from this pointlessness>
That's rich!

The whole issue is suddenly pointless when people start disagreeing with you, and yet you don't find it pointless to enter threads on a regular basis simply to take cheap shots at people who use PCs. I'm not sure whether you're a coward or an idiot, but i think it must be at least one of the two.
editor said:
Laydees and gentlemen!

Welcome to the 4,538,685th bout, starring the usual contestants...
Thing is, it's not even a PC v. Mac debate. Not for me anyway, because i couldn't care less. I love Macs, think they're great computers, but happen to run a PC because it suits my needs.

It's about people, whether PC or Mac supporters, who drop steaming turds of computer-related self-righteousness wherever they see the opportunity. The prime offender here seems to be a Mac user, but i've seen just as bad from the PC crowd in various places on the internet.
 
lobster said:
>>Linux is all well and good, but there is fuck all real software available for it.<<

Have you not looked?
http://directory.fsf.org/

I use linux on my desktop and much of the software is utter wank. Evolution exchange connector - buggy as fuck. Open office - the same and shite too.

Luckily the stuff I really need works well (eclipse, jedit, konsole, terminal server)
 
mhendo said:
You know, i'm not one of the more prolific posters around here, but i've been around enough to notice you in other, non-computer related threads and you generally seem not to act like a complete idiot in those discussions. Is there something in your subconscious that makes you completely irrational when it comes to computers? Were you attacked by a PC when you were a kid, or something like that?That's rich!

Ho-hum... Someone still hasn't read any of my posts. The reason why I don't encourage use of Xp is becuase I've noticed that its security model seems a bit ineffective. This is born out by observation from all the viruses and malware etc, that seem to go on...

I tend to think that if I use something then it shouldn't be insecure. If i buy a car then I expect it not to get stolen or broken into through having dodgy locks. Houses/flats should have similar... I'm a bit suprised why people still use Xp when it has these problems, but as I've pointed out before their choice is their choice.

Not sure how this me being irrational, but I'm not the one spewing insults...
 
Dask said:
I was talking about real software, Photoshop, Quark, Flash, Illustrator, Logic, Cubase, Reaktor etc

Not this freebie GNU nonsense. :)

Have you tried Crossover Office...? Runs Microsodt Office fine, and I've heard that its quite good with Photoshop etc... (But if you want Photoshop for BSD then I think Adobe will sell you a copy as long as you run it on OS X :D )
 
gimp and cinepaint together fullfills photoshop
Inkscape is your Illustrator
There is a linux flash
Scribus is fine publishing application like Quark
Rosegarden or ardour is a cubase or pro-tools contender

The fact that commericial software developers do not code (most software) for any os apart from windows or mac is the developers choice, that does not instantly mean linux should be dismissed, just because its only used by 5% of desktop users.
Windows comes free (most of the time) with any brand new pc, and I presume mac os x comes free with any new mactel, hence developers will guarantee they will sell there software.
When was the last time you saw a new computer advertised (excluding linux magazine adds) that came with os that is not widows or mac osx ?
Untill that happens, how can anyone expect commerical software developed for it?
 
jæd said:
Ho-hum... Someone still hasn't read any of my posts.
I've read them all, liar. And your constant shifting of the goalposts does you little credit.
jæd said:
The reason why I don't encourage use of Xp is becuase I've noticed that its security model seems a bit ineffective. This is born out by observation from all the viruses and malware etc, that seem to go on...
You're weaseling, weasel.

No-one has asked you to "encourage use of Xp." Nor has anyone argued that your particular concerns about Xp security are invalid or unreasonable.

All people are complaining about is the tendency of you and people like you to ridicule those who make different choices than you—choices that are often the result of informed decision-making processes. You drop into threads with general computer discussion to piss all over PCs and the people who use them, and you imply that anyone who chooses Windows is a moron.
jæd said:
I tend to think that if I use something then it shouldn't be insecure. If i buy a car then I expect it not to get stolen or broken into through having dodgy locks. Houses/flats should have similar... I'm a bit suprised why people still use Xp when it has these problems, but as I've pointed out before their choice is their choice.
And yet you continue to ridicule them for it. Despite all the evidence that the choice they make is an informed one, and the product they choose is one that suits their needs. I must have missed the memo that made you responsible for determining what everyone else's needs should be.
jæd said:
Not sure how this me being irrational, but I'm not the one spewing insults...
Lying again.

Your very first contribution to this thread basically stated that anyone who uses Windows is uninformed or stupid. You also said:
jæd said:
Just if you use Windows and you get a virus/malware/it doesn't work right/it explodes its your choice...
Here's a question for you.

You apparently believe that the problems with Windows are problems that can lead to the sort of things you describe here—viruses, malware, instability, and general not working right.

I have a Windows computer. I've had this one for almost two years. It has no viruses, it has no malware, it has never given me any problems, it has been running stably and consistently for the whole time i've owned it, and i've never lost any data.

Given that this computer does everything that i need it to do, and that it does so without breaking down or becoming infected with malware, how is it different—in real-life, practical terms that would actually affect my day-to-day operation—from running a Mac or Linux?

I'm not talking about how the interface or the programs are different. I'm talking about general usability in the categories that you listed. If your argument is that Windows is insecure and unstable and that's why people shouldn't use it, then your argument becomes completely moot once it is demonstrated that Windows can be (and in most cases is) secure and stable enough for people's needs.

I'm not going to deny that it is, in certain fundamental ways, less secure than Mac and Linux systems. Despite not being an expert myself, i've read enough material by security experts to know this. But the experts i've read also say that these issues can be quite easily avoided with some simple precautions. And that is exactly the case for me and millions of other Windows users.
 
mhendo said:
Your very first contribution to this thread basically stated that anyone who uses Windows is uninformed or stupid.

Nope... Just uninformed of the choices available. If we are adding words to this post then my second draft of it would be:

"Does anyone really use a Windows PC through informed choice, based on a thorough understanding of each choice...?

You're welcome to find somewhere where I directy insult anyone through the choice of their computing o/s. But I hope you have better things to do one a Friday evening...

mhendo said:
Given that this computer does everything that i need it to do, and that it does so without breaking down or becoming infected with malware, how is it different—in real-life, practical terms that would actually affect my day-to-day operation—from running a Mac or Linux?

Isn't that like saying that, as long as it doesn't get broken into, a car without lockable doors is just as secure as one that does...?
 
mhendo said:
I'm not going to deny that it is, in certain fundamental ways, less secure than Mac and Linux systems. Despite not being an expert myself, i've read enough material by security experts to know this. But the experts i've read also say that these issues can be quite easily avoided with some simple precautions. And that is exactly the case for me and millions of other Windows users.

There is a flip side to this coin, too. Just as a windows box can be rendered reasonably secure through a few simple precautions, any *nix system can be insecure through simple mismanagement.

And before anybody accuses me of being Bill Gates' bitch (which jæd did about a year ago when I made a similar point), I'm one of those poeple who considers Windows to be innapropriate for his own uses. In fact, I'm one of those religious nuts who uses Debian (elitism and all) as his desktop OS.

Go in peace
 
mhendo said:
I've read them all, liar. And your constant shifting of the goalposts does you little credit. You're weaseling, weasel.

jæd said:
Personally, I couldn't give a stuff. Just if you use Windows and you get a virus/malware/it doesn't work right/it explodes its your choice and I won't be helping you. (Except I will becaus I tend to be helpful and nice)

Think you'll find I've been saying the samething all the way through this.. :D
 
>>. In fact, I'm one of those religious nuts who uses Debian (elitism and all) as his desktop OS.<<

don't feel pious, i use slackware and slamd64 as a desktop OS
 
lobster said:
>>. In fact, I'm one of those religious nuts who uses Debian (elitism and all) as his desktop OS.<<

don't feel pious, i use slackware and slamd64 as a desktop OS

Not only am I a nut, I'm lazy too :D
 
OS wars, they are so last year :D

I'm in Iam's camp. OSes, I run them all, whatever suits what I need doing at the time. WinXP, Win2003, Linux, Solaris (No mac OS though, don't have a suitable PPC which is a shame). A total OS tart :D

BTW good post mhendo, from a users POV its all horses for courses. Whatever you can use safely and get on with.

If you follow a few simple rules you can be safe running windows, my parents have been doing it for years now, they're in their 60s and have no IT experience whatsoever. They might get stuck from time to time remebering how to spell-check, but in the last three years they've never had a virus, a trojan or even been the recipients of phishing emails or spam. They are very low-profile :)
 
jæd said:
"Does anyone really use a Windows PC through informed choice, based on a thorough understanding of each choice...?
And the answer would be "yes," as anyone with more than three functioning neurons would realize.
jæd said:
Isn't that like saying that, as long as it doesn't get broken into, a car without lockable doors is just as secure as one that does...?
Actually, i think a more appropriate analogy would be to say that i'm happy with my car that has locking doors, an immobilization device, and a good alarm system.

While i realize that this isn't quite as secure as posting an armed guard next to the car 24 hours a day, the very slight increase in risk is more than offset by the conveneince and reduced expense.
 
twist said:
Really? I do so hate to be behind the times. Are we back on vi vs emacs already?

Actually you've just reminded me of the most ridiculous reason I heard for a bar brawl ever. Two pissed network engineers getting into a scrap over X.25 v Frame Relay !!!!!

Now that is fucked up :D
 
lobster said:
When was the last time you saw a new computer advertised (excluding linux magazine adds) that came with os that is not widows or mac osx ?
Untill that happens, how can anyone expect commerical software developed for it?

This is where I will make my contribution to the discussion...

Apple aside, the reason you see so few PCs advertised without Windows is that Microsoft have structured their OEM contracts with suppliers so that's what happens.

If you're a company like Dell or HP, the only way you get significant volume discounts from MS are by licensing a copy of Windows with every desktop PC you sell, regardless of whether your customer wants it or not. If a manufacturer chooses not to sign up to those terms and install an alternative OS on some of their product but still provide Windows on other machines, they'll pay a heavy price for it. Bear in mind that the PC mass-market is very price sensitive.

Dell have made some creative attempts to circumvent this dilemma by selling some computers without a pre-installed OS, but with a copy of FreeDOS that you install yourself, read this story on The Register. However, when you take everything into accout, these computers cost more than their equivalent models that come with Windows already installed.

I'll readily concede that equally you can't today buy an Apple computer without a copy of Mac OS X, but they're in a completely different market position to Microsoft.

What I will argue against vociferously is a computer monoculture. Monocultures are fragile and prone to disease. That is at the root of my misgivings over a Windows hegemony. What I espouse is a pluralistic approach to computing with many operating systems co-operating with open standards.
 
Radar said:
Actually you've just reminded me of the most ridiculous reason I heard for a bar brawl ever. Two pissed network engineers getting into a scrap over X.25 v Frame Relay !!!!!
Today's virtual scrap over whether a thread about Barcelona should be made a sticky thread or not was pretty good too.

Still, it's early doors for this thread yet... I wonder how many real life fights there have been after people have argued about Mac vs PC.

There's got to have been a few if the heated online scraps are anything to go by.
 
cybertect

I agree with everything you've said. I have a Windows computer, and i'm happy with it, but this doesn't mean that i consider myself a defender of Microsoft as a corporation. And i also think that the extent to which Microsoft has managed to cultivate a computer monoculture is one of the reasons behind any security and stability problems in their OS and in their software more generally. Their market dominance has made them complacent (or perhaps wilfully slow and unresponsive).

I think the computer world would be more interesting, and probably more dynamic, if there were a larger range of real options out there. I think it might also be better if Mac had a larger market share, and if more people ran Linux. And i think that consumers and the computer companies themselves should start putting pressure on MS to provide more flexible licensing agreements so that we have more options.

When the time comes for me to upgrade to a new computer, i'm going to seriously consider making it a Linux box. But the thing is, even under the best of circumstances switching from Windows to Linux involves a process of learning that takes time and effort, and that requires the user to know more about the computer than he or she otherwise might.

For the vast majority of people, the computer is merely a tool for accomplishing particular tasks, and they don't have much interest in exactly how it all works, as long as it does work. To continue my (now rather overused) automotive analogy, most drivers don't have extensive knowledge of how their car works; as long as it gets them to and from work, that's all they need.

And cost is a factor for most people, which is something that some Mac boosters seem unable to grasp. Nor it is a merely extraneous factor than can be considered separately from technical issues such as performance and security. People make decisions about costs and convenience all the time, and the fact is that, for many people, the increased cost of a Mac (for similar processing power and capability) outweighs the extra security and (perhaps) reliability of Mac computers.

To argue that making such a decision marks someone as "uninformed," as some people do, is precisely to miss the point about what economic decision-making is all about. If i choose a Windows PC, it's not because i'm unaware of the flaws and the possible risks; it's because i've taken those potential flaws and risks into consideration when evaluating the options i have, the funds available, and the uses to which my computer will be put. And that's what, ahem, some people seem unable to grasp.
 
editor Still said:
Yeah that would be well funny. I suspect many keyboard warriors wouldn't say boo to a goose in real life. Do you think I could the rights for pay to view? Geek vs Nerd. Final episiode would have to a deathmatch between Jobs vs Gates.
 
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