Why do people get involved in extreme pornography?

[Fruitloop]

All human sexuality is 'sick', in the sense that it requires a symbolic order through which to find expression. In a way Western sexuality is sicker, because a major part of many people's sexual/symbolic makeup involves this unrealisable search for a natural, physically endogenous sexual being, as opposed to the avowedly phantasmatic sexual play in which some Eastern cultures indulge.

The only way to have a completely natural sexuality is probably to have a lobotomy.

 

[bluestreak]

The only way to have a completely natural sexuality is probably to have a lobotomy.

What if the thought of having a lobotomy turns you one?

 

[Fruitloop]

Benefit scroungers should be allowed sexual lobotomies on the NHS, payed for out of an extra tax levied on people who vote Conservative or BNP. Not out of any particular political principle, just to annoy the fuckers.

 

[gorski]

Human sexuality per se is not sick. It's natural and legit, overall speaking.

The way it is formed by the societal relations - that is another matter.

One needs to read Malinowski and Reich, then Fromm, perhaps...

 

[Fruitloop]

Well yeah but none of us can experience human sexuality per se, it exists for us only as mediated by the symbolic order.

 

[Thora]

Moreover, is it OK to consider stuff "sick"?

I'm not sure how you can tell if something is "sick" or not

 

[bluestreak]

I'm not sure how you can tell if something is "sick" or not

Does it make 9 out of 10 liberals puke? If so, then it's officially sick.

 

[Fruitloop]

Does it make 9 out of 10 liberals puke? If so, then it's officially worthwhile.

Fixed.

 

[bluestreak]

I approve of that edit.

 

[gorski]

Well yeah but none of us can experience human sexuality per se, it exists for us only as mediated by the symbolic order.

We have legitimate, bodily and sexual, needs. They need to be recognised and respected. Gratification in the sexual sense is necessary.

On the other hand, there are "symbolic orders" of different kinds, sure... Some more oppressive then others...

That Austrian sociopath, Thora: is he or isn't he...?

 

[Thora]

That Austrian sociopath, Thora: is he or isn't he...?

So it's sick if it's non-consensual or if you're hurting others - or if the balance of power is such that it isn't possible to gain real consent. I'd agree with that.

What about porn based on the Austrian sociopath though

 

[stdPikachu]

Now define a what the difference is between a legitimate sexual need an an illegitimate one

 

[gorski]

OK, let's imagine various scenarios...

These are some of the sick scenarios for me... I.e. people who need help and who may warrant the sectioning, in order to protect others from them and sometimes themselves from themselves... Including the possible "screening of such 'phenomena' in a "realistic" fashion" - no thanx!

For instance: "I wanna be murdered and eaten by a Human, after we fuck - it really turns me on, this... fantasy...!!!" Consensual only... but...

Maybe if he says to her: "I want to strangle you as I fuck you! I love the feeling of power over you and I know I like it a bit much when it's really "edgy" but I can't really help myself..."?!?

Oh, how about this: "I'll give you some 'medicine', so you can cope with it easily... but I won't tell you..."

Or: "I wanna fuck you without a condom, even though we don't know each other at all and even though you don't want it... but - I'll pay... or threaten you or knock you about a bit..."

Even: "I know you're too small, too young, too immature and inexperienced and I know I'm too big for you but you will still get it, even though you're saying you don't wanna, 'cause you don't know what's good for ya! Especially when I'm gonna fuck yer arse you will really enjoy it.... maybe not now but eventually..."

You never heard of power-driven people, morbid bastards, emotionally retarded, utterly immature, as seriously insecure and really messed up, most of the time abused themselves, who then become abusers, as they "don't know anything else, so for them it's all cool..."?!?

Have you read Fromm's books I mentioned earlier, maybe in other threads, like "The Heart of Man" or "The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness" or Reich's "Mass Psychology of Fascism" or...?!?

For starters...

 

[stdPikachu]

Those are all examples. Last time I looked, the law didn't cite ream on ream of examples, just a few vague guidelines. It's a piece of piss to come up with a bunch of examples that 99% of people will say "are sick", very difficult to say "these are the criteria that are universally reviled", especially when they clash with fetishes people have that are already legal. Once you cross over the line in saying what sort of sex people are and aren't allowed to have (on the assumption that they're compis mentis adults and are acting entirely of their ow free will) you're on a very, very slippery slope.

There's a sizable portion of people in the states, for example, who think oral sex should be outlawed because "it's sick". Same for homosexual intercourse or a million other sexual predelicitions. Who's the ultimate authority to decide which ones are sick and which aren't? Where do you draw the line?

You never heard of power-driven people, morbid bastards, emotionally retarded, utterly immature, as seriously insecure and really messed up, most of the time abused themselves, who then become abusers, as they "don't know anything else, so for them it's all cool..."?!?

Welcome to humanity

 

[Thora]

These are some of the sick scenarios for me... I.e. people who need help and who may warrant the sectioning, in order to protect others from them and sometimes themselves from themselves... Including the possible "screening of such 'phenomena' in a "realistic" fashion" - no thanx!

For instance: "I wanna be murdered and eaten by a Human, after we fuck - it really turns me on, this... fantasy...!!!" Consensual only... but...

Maybe if he says to her: "I want to strangle you as I fuck you! I love the feeling of power over you and I know I like it a bit much when it's really "edgy" but I can't really help myself..."?!?

Oh, how about this: "I'll give you some 'medicine', so you can cope with it easily... but I won't tell you..."

Or: "I wanna fuck you without a condom, even though we don't know each other at all and even though you don't want it... but - I'll pay... or threaten you or knock you about a bit..."

Even: "I know you're too small, too young, too immature and inexperienced and I know I'm too big for you but you will still get it, even though you're saying you don't wanna, 'cause you don't know what's good for ya! Especially when I'm gonna fuck yer arse you will really enjoy it.... maybe not now but eventually..."

You never heard of power-driven people, morbid bastards, emotionally retarded, utterly immature, as seriously insecure and really messed up, most of the time abused themselves, who then become abusers, as they "don't know anything else, so for them it's all cool..."?!?

Have you read Fromm's books I mentioned earlier, maybe in other threads, like "The Heart of Man" or "The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness" or Reich's "Mass Psychology of Fascism" or...?!?

For starters...

So these are all examples of people being seriously injured, or non-consensual situations.

 

[gorski]

Nope.

The principle of using and abusing - seeing others as mere means to one's own ends - that's the point.

Humiliation, exploitation, domination, as a principle... Well, I call it sick!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So that we debate the issues and understand where it comes from and if it is sick or not and why. As explained above.

You still haven't answered this question, from above:

What does the research tell us about a foot fetish, or about why some men are 'breast' men, and some, 'butt' men?

 

[kyser_soze]

Nope.

The principle of using and abusing - seeing others as mere means to one's own ends - that's the point.

Humiliation, exploitation, domination, as a principle... Well, I call it sick!

So you think that even consensual BDSM is sick? That's your limit then.

For me it's 2 Girls 1 Cup and scat, which admittedly is related to BDSM (wanting to be covered/wanting another to cover you in waste) but is completely related to my personal taste. I'm reminded of a great C4 doc called 'The Anatomy of Disgust' which looked at what makes people disgusted, the history of it etc...

 

[Sweaty Betty]

We are a nation of silent sex addicts- we have been for yonks- even the romans or defo the greeks shit on themselves and all sorts!!!

 

[kyser_soze]

This is the limit for me! Sick bastard.

 

[stdPikachu]

Humiliation, exploitation, domination, as a principle... Well, I call it sick!

Some call it love Humans are a fucking weird bunch alright.

 

[gorski]

Oh, well, so much self-advertising, bragging and cries for help in this thread... Narcissism and immaturity galore... All at once...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

or defo the greeks shit on themselves and all sorts!!!

You'd know about the greeks, wouldn't you?

 

[Fruitloop]

The thing is, wanting to be dominant or submissive in bdsm play or whatever is related to actually wanting to dominate or submit in real life the same way going paint-balling is related to going to war.

As much as it is correct to apply ethical standards to real activity, it is inappropriate to apply it to products of the imagination; art, entertainment, play etc. Otherwise you end up with 'a policeman in the head', and whether it has a left or right political character that's still undesirable.

 

[gorski]

Sorry but it's not the 'policeman' - more like auto-socio-psychoanalyst. Quite different. And without the constant self-analysis - all of it [psychoanalysis and social psychology] has no meaning.

All that [discussed above] I find alienated and alienating. Ways of getting out of it lies in the Humanist Ethics - the belief in Truth as emancipatory.

One has to have this belief that Man's liberation is rooted in Man's capacity to break down the "chains of illusion".

So, the Q is: where does the need for it [dominance/subservience, exploitation etc.] come from?

Uncomfortable, I grant you.

But valid!

 

[joe_infinity]

as long as it is consensual, it is absolutely fine imo no matter how sick it might seem to some people

 

[gorski]

It doesn't make it any less prone to critical inquiry or even being sick...

 

[stdPikachu]

It doesn't make it any less prone to critical inquiry or even being sick...

What does, cycling into work? Eating a McDonalds? You're health and safety gone mad, you are

 

[Fruitloop]

Sorry but it's not the 'policeman' - more like auto-socio-psychoanalyst. Quite different. And without the constant self-analysis - all of it [psychoanalysis and social psychology] has no meaning.

All that [discussed above] I find alienated and alienating. Ways of getting out of it lies in the Humanist Ethics - the belief in Truth as emancipatory.

One has to have this belief that Man's liberation is rooted in Man's capacity to break down the "chains of illusion".

So, the Q is: where does the need for it [dominance/subservience, exploitation etc.] come from?

Uncomfortable, I grant you.

But valid!

Well I think that domination/submission - power relationships in other words - come from most human relations. I can't forsee any social development that will allow us to stand outside of power entirely - only ones that can mitigate power imbalances and prevent them from turning into exploitation.

These are only specific examples of how the sex drive is displaced into objects in the symbolic order though, it can be displaced in all sorts of ways both metonymically (foot fetish etc) and metaphorically (into dressing up, power play etc).

Abjective issues play a big part - the sexual urges tie the thinking subject and its 'death drive' to the saccus stercoris of embodiment and so they are a locus for the struggle to establish boundaries of the self, and the source of a primal alienation between the symbolic subject and material things.

 

[Sweaty Betty]

You'd know about the greeks, wouldn't you?

Well yes, but this one has hygiene OCD