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Why do Americans think the answer to school shootings is to arm students?

niksativa said:
Anarchists!

The irony being, of course, that the State has instigated tyranny. Except that tyranny has been against other countries rather that its own people.

Oh well, why change a Constitution eh? Better to leave it and have thousands of loons running around with guns and shit. Much better idea.

:rolleyes:
 
likesfish said:
but not legally available cause we can't trust people with guns but criminals can have what they like :mad:
a gun free zone in the states is barking madness unless theres some physical barrier thats going to stop a bad person who choses to ignore the law bringing his gun into the area :(
either have shed loads of armed guards and a fuck off security fence or give people the means to self defence. don't pass a law banning guns from an area wear anyone can get hold of a gun :(

I can only imagine how unnerved I/others would have felt at uni if the thousands of students roaming the campus had guns in their backpacks.

Dreadful idea.
 
Pete the Greek said:
The Constitution wasn't written by God. It was written by a collection of hurried, hassled bearded men 200 years ago...why is it so fucking sacred? You can't base a logical, reasoned argument on something because a bit of paper written in the times of musketts and militias and TB and Polio said so FFS :mad:

Oh I give up. Never mind, let them get on with it. :rolleyes:

Pathetic.

(though I would like to say that I have met several East and West Coast Liberal Americans in my time, and they are fantastic, sensible people with their heads screwed on right).

Least we have a constition and a bill of rights. :rolleyes:

And your lucky i don't have the time to kick your ass on this topic..............

Very very lucky. :D
 
Pete the Greek said:
source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/18/wcampus1718.xml

Most worrying paragraph: "Millions of Americans will accept his implication that the killings happened not because guns were too freely available but because they were not available enough."

So let me get this right...a large proportion of Americans think the answer to Virginia Tech would have been to ensure that all 25,000 students were armed? That way the disaster wouldn't have happened because someone would have killed Sho before he mowed everyone down?

ok, I have 10 points I must make before my head explodes.

1) Given that Sho had mental illness, would it not be logical that out of 25,000 students (or indeed any sample pool of 25,000 humans) a small number would have a similar or potentially similar disposition towards random or illogical acts of extreme violence, and as such, killings could occur more regularly if all 25,000 were armed?

2) If you armed 25,000 students, what if some of them got pissed on a night out, lost the plot and killed someone? Is that just "shit happens"? or could NOT HAVING A GUN possibly aid the situation?

3) What if some of these hypothetically armed 25,000 students got drunk/forgetful etc and lost their piece? Or had it nabbed off them by a local in the pub (sorry, baar)? That's an awol bit of kit there. Not a concern?

4) What if a student had a down patch, and instaed of seeking normal, civilised ways of dealing with it (going for a walk, speaking to a mate, doing a contact sport etc) he/she decided to turn towards the at-hand "problem solver" and turn their gun on themselves or others?

5) Even if all 25,000 students were armed and bowling about campus with their guns in their bags, would that necessarily mean that a would-be assailant could not surprise a group of students (in a room say) and tell them to put their hands up...any movement and BANG? Which would indicate that there are many scenarios where being armed would mean jack shit.

6) Where would such a hypothetical situ lead the cops? They would have to be trained in some very very extreme, civil war management training, to deal with potential situs where they have to deal with affray, breach of peace etc where ALL suspects or bystanders are armed. Would this lead to more paranoid policing and trigger happy cop decisions? as Fox News would say...YOU DECIDE!

7) How much would these guns cost, given that students are usually skint? And wouldn't students do what everyone at that age does? compare and try and compete on who's got the biggest and best "piece"?

8) Would arming 25,000 students mean that whenever a student perceives a crime is about to take place against them: petty theft, common assault, AOABH, mugging etc, they have a right to draw weapons? And if not, what rules of engagement would be taught? And would this encourage the small local criminal fraternity to "turn up the heat"?

9) Would there be a net loss in shootings and killings by arming 25,000 students? if not, and if it can be shown this would not occur statistically, then why do so many Americans remain convinced that arming the students was/is the answer?

10) Why are Americans generally so gun-loving and fucking stupid?

and a point 11 as an aside...The constitution of the US is wildly outdated and irrelevant to the modern world as to make it a parody and a farce. Something needs to be done to change it in order to stop this fucking "right to bear arms" bollocks that is the root cause for this disgraceful situation of rampant gun crime/abuse in the States.

Thank you for listening. Now, for Wogan on Radio 2....lalalalala.

I thnk that your reasoning here is based on a false premise.

The theory that is described is not that Cho's rampage would not have happened. Rather it is that his attack would not have been as devastating in terms of the number dead.

The point is also not about arming the student body but rather allowing those students who have a concealed carry gun license to exercise that right on campus.

Virginia as a state has very relaxed gun laws and yet the University decided to designate the campus as a gun free zone on penalty of possible expulsion. This would deter the law abiding from carrying guns but not someone such as Cho. By the time he carried out his deeds the possibility of sanction from the courts was entirely meaningless. He was a dead man walking.

It is likely that had there not been such stringent rules regarding firearms a number of those in the vicinity (whether student or teacher) would have had access to a personal firearm with which they could have defended themselves. Potentially ending the incident before it had reached such a high bodycount.

As it was the student body was defenceless, something that Cho would almost certainly have known and factored in to his planning.

The point in my eyes is that as far as guns go is that you can either prohibit them completely or allow law abiding citizens the same access that criminals have. There's no halfway house.

Would Cho have acted differently if he had known that any of the people in the building he was attacking could have been armed? Maybe, maybe not. What i am certain of is that he would not have been able to kill as many as he did.
 
Pete the Greek said:
source:
So let me get this right...a large proportion of Americans think the answer to Virginia Tech would have been to ensure that all 25,000 students were armed? That way the disaster wouldn't have happened because someone would have killed Sho before he mowed everyone down?

Well not so dramatic, but basically yes.

Had those students who possess conceal permits been allowed to exercise them on campus there's a fair chance that one of them could have stopped Sho.

I pointed out on another thread about this that our septic chums see this as more of a failure of the anti-gun idea, rather than pro-gun ideas, and strengthens their belief in their right to bear arms rather than weakens it.

This is most evident in the media coverage, while Sky news was wringing their hands over gun control over at Fox it wasn't even mentioned. Why? Because it's not the issue as they see it.

Don't see the point in judging them over this, it's just another exercise in smug emotionally correct imperialism. Reminds me of how as a society we used to rule ourselves as superior over those ignorant African savages who just needed us to teach them Christianity and Commerce to save them from themselves. Perhaps the trait which built Empire is still within a large number of us. :rolleyes:
 
Khardran said:
Would Cho have acted differently if he had known that any of the people in the building he was attacking could have been armed?
I suspect he would have arrived even more heavily armed.
 
TAE said:
I suspect he would have arrived even more heavily armed.

Sounds like the most normal conclusion to make.
Maybe US universtities should organise degrees in target shooting. At least that would bring all the desperate gun lovers together at one obvious location :)

salaam.
 
There is no answer, you can have few guns laws or a lot of gun laws. Doesn't stop a nutter going on a killing spree, not at Dunblane nor at Virginia Tech.

The biggest delusion is that smugness whether it's pro or anti is in anyway useful.
 
Dhimmi said:
There is no answer, you can have few guns laws or a lot of gun laws. Doesn't stop a nutter going on a killing spree, not at Dunblane nor at Virginia Tech.

The biggest delusion is that smugness whether it's pro or anti is in anyway useful.

Dhimmi, isn’t there a chance that a tightening up of gun laws just might cut down on the 30,000 gun related deaths in the US annually? In the UK, gun deaths run at around 1,000 per year (that would translate to 5,000 deaths if the UK had the same size population as the US).

As long as the US clings to its right to bear arms and see its kids slaughtered in schools with indecent regularity – why the fuck should we care. My main concern is that the contagion spreads outside the quarantined area. They have contaminated us with McDonalds, Mickey Mouse and a front seat in the Iraq arena; they can keep their fucking liberal gun ownership laws – cunts.
 
Irenick said:
In the UK, gun deaths run at around 1,000 per year (that would translate to 5,000 deaths if the UK had the same size population as the US).
Shouldn't you calculate to figure the gun owners per gun death, meaning the deaths per gun owner in the UK versus the same in the US?

See it wouldn't mean much if, for instance, only 1000 people in the UK were gun owners. That would argue that every gun owner in the UK was reckless with guns.
 
Irenick said:
Dhimmi, isn’t there a chance that a tightening up of gun laws just might cut down on the 30,000 gun related deaths in the US annually? In the UK, gun deaths run at around 1,000 per year (that would translate to 5,000 deaths if the UK had the same size population as the US).

Yes there is, but we'll never see it happen.

The presidential candidate who offers serious gun reform is the one who'll never be elected to office, just like a party leader here couldn't offer easier gun ownership and expect to gain power.

Aside from the horror of these sad events, the part which infuriates me is the lazy exploitation of it by the media to a fickle public which serves to distract from issues that could and should be addressed.
 
pbman said:
Least we have a constition and a bill of rights. :rolleyes:

And your lucky i don't have the time to kick your ass on this topic..............

Very very lucky. :D
Good grief, peebs.

Where the hell have you been, you old bumpkin?

Everything OK?

:)

Woof
 
Jessiedog said:
Good grief, peebs.

Where the hell have you been, you old bumpkin?
He did a runner after a nasty little bout of Jew-hating a while back (apparently we brought the holocaust on ourselves by inventing communism and causing the 1917 revolution).
Everything OK?

:)

Woof

I sincerely hope not. I hope his haemorrhoids have haemorrhoids.
 
Dhimmi said:
Aside from the horror of these sad events, the part which infuriates me is the lazy exploitation of it by the media to a fickle public which serves to distract from issues that could and should be addressed.

Sad events? Fuck 'em, if they're that wedded to their constitutional rights; let the cunts kill one and other on an industrial level if needs be. Maybe, that will distract them from killing hundreds of thousands the world over; or, stop them spreading their cankerous ways across the planet.

Why are we even interested in that shithole 3,000 miles to our west?
 
Irenick said:
Why are we even interested in that shithole 3,000 miles to our west?
Obsession.


Americans have to right to have guns because of what happend to Scotland when England was looking out for Scotlands best interests in the early 1700's.
 
What hatred....and intentional non understanding.
I know there are so many here that hate America like a reliegion, it gives their lives purpose. Kinda sad really To be do disconnected from reality.
They dont see how silly or illogical their arguments and comments are.
REAL people died in the VT shootings
So many here espouse to care for other people yet in reality some are as callus as Nazis.

Trying to control guns in America would be like going to the beach and telling the waves to stop comeing in.
I understand that Many dont think like we do and can never understand
I can not understand why so many Of you think the way you do either.
yet THAT is part of being Who you are.
If the students had been armed, even just a few of them Someone could have stopped this asshole LONG before he finally ran out of Ammo and killed himself.
32 people dead? and the guy did it with a 9mm and a .22 pistol? that is a feat of arms that is quite remarkable
The Asshole went from table to table and Barricade to Barricade killing the students as they cowared behind them hopeing to be passed by.
It was time to fight and none of them did.
If they had all rushed him they could have stopped him
Those that survived have to remember that.
Makeing guns illegal and or impossible to get would make self defence much more diffacult to impossible.
The Need for guns in America will never go away
 
dilute micro said:
Obsession.


Americans have to right to have guns because of what happend to Scotland when England was looking out for Scotlands best interests in the early 1700's.

Oh.
 
Rentonite said:
What hatred....and intentional non understanding.
I know there are so many here that hate America like a reliegion, it gives their lives purpose. Kinda sad really To be do disconnected from reality.
They dont see how silly or illogical their arguments and comments are.
REAL people died in the VT shootings
So many here espouse to care for other people yet in reality some are as callus as Nazis.

If all students carried guns, you'd have very few massacres but the total body count would be many times greater as individual students shot people that annoyed them before killing themselves or falling in a hail of gunfire from their classmates.

Being armed to the teeth for killing is not a prerequisite for studying and most probably is contrary to it.
 
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