Why didn't the Jews resist?

[ViolentPanda]

Great. So they sat by while he euthanized their retarded kids etc.

Aktion T-4 was a closely-guarded secret, so it's highly doubtful that the German people "...sat by while he euthanized their retarded kids etc". When it was found out to have happened there was a mass outcry over it.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah, led mostly by the Catholic Church, the only organisation which, while colluding with hitler on many other issues, still had a semi-independent power base.

 

[butchersapron]

The protestant churches which hadn't gone along with the national church (can't remember the exact name) were heavily involved as well. The interesting thing is that both churches only got involved when the Nazi-party-state stepped on their prerogatives - when it was the KPD or the Jews it was 'none of our buiness guv'. Intense dangerous oppostion side by side with not giving much of a fuck.

 

[ymu]

nor did the religion itself, which at the time placed emphasis on extreme non violence and "obeying the law of the land" rather like the style of buddhism that is seen in burma etc.

Naturei Karta, the infamously anti-Zionist (Ultra-?)Orthodox Jews have this fatalistic attitude; it's quite horrific. Palestinian groups like to have them to speak but, in student audiences at least, my experience is of them talking of the Shoah as a punishment to be borne stoically, and telling Jewish audience members that they're "not real Jews". It wasn't possible to steer the speaker onto human rights issues in Palestine - because this is not their interest.

Now, I know that until the late 1930's, Zionism was considered heresy by Orthodox Jewry and was rejected by the majority of World Jewry. The reasons for the shifts in attitudes to Zionism are obvious, but were the orthodox objections generally very similar to NK today? And if so, is this a large part of the reason for the really quite dramatic shifts in Judaism - religious Jewish thought - following WWII?

 

[frogwoman]

Naturei Karta, the infamously anti-Zionist (Ultra-?)Orthodox Jews have this fatalistic attitude; it's quite horrific. Palestinian groups like to have them to speak but, in student audiences at least, my experience is of them talking of the Shoah as a punishment to be borne stoically, and telling Jewish audience members that they're "not real Jews". It wasn't possible to steer the speaker onto human rights issues in Palestine - because this is not their interest.

Now, I know that until the late 1930's, Zionism was considered heresy by Orthodox Jewry and was rejected by the majority of World Jewry. The reasons for the shifts in attitudes to Zionism are obvious, but were the orthodox objections generally very similar to NK today? And if so, is this a large part of the reason for the really quite dramatic shifts in Judaism - religious Jewish thought - following WWII?

Yeah I know. They can do a lot more harm than good IMO.

I don't know whether the orthdox objections were the same as Neturei Karta's were now but everything Ive read about many Jewish denominations in the years leading up to WWII suggests that non violence was literally an obsession with some of them. It'd be interesting to find out.

 

[ymu]

Well, get a move on then woman. You're by far my most reliable source of information on here.

 

[frogwoman]

Paul Johnson's "A history of the Jews" and Lucy Davidoweicz (sp??) both have a lot to say about it

 

[frogwoman]

Well, get a move on then woman. You're by far my most reliable source of information on here.

lol i don't know how reliable i am though tbh ...

 

[butchersapron]

Paul Johnson's "A history of the Jews" and Lucy Davidoweicz (sp??) both have a lot to say about it

Johnson's book hold the record for the most ever factual amendments having to be made to later editions (was true a few years back) LD's book, whilst good for the time is lo0oking sadly out of date due to recent research. It mighnt still be sound on this particular issue you two are talking about though.

 

[frogwoman]

Johnson's book hold the record for the most ever factual amendments having to be made to later editions (was true a few years back) LD's book, whilst good for the time is lo0oking sadly out of date due to recent research. It mighnt still be sound on this particular issue you two are talking about though.

Ahh, OK. Point taken ...

why did the factual amendments have to be made? x

 

[ymu]

Johnson's book hold the record for the most ever factual amendments having to be made to later editions (was true a few years back) LD's book, whilst good for the time is lo0oking sadly out of date due to recent research. It mighnt still be sound on this particular issue you two are talking about though.

Fuck's sake BA! Do you have to chew books before you digest them?

 

[butchersapron]

Ahh, OK. Point taken ...

why did the factual amendments have to be made? x

Because he got loads of stuff wong

 

[frogwoman]

Because he got loads of stuff wong

Ahhhh I'd never have guessed !!!
What sort of stuff though?

 

[butchersapron]

Ahhhh I'd never have guessed !!!
What sort of stuff though?

God, i couldn't tell you off the top of my head. Private Eye (i think it was them) did a huge list of the things that had to be changed about 10 years back - it was a mighty long list.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Thank you - he knows full well that what he's insinuating is absolute rubbish. And if he doesn't he really should - and maybe get himself up to date with serious historical writings on just this question before poining fingers. Unless he thinks scholars (including Jewish writers) of the quality of Arno Mayer, Yehuda Bauer, Isiah Trunk, Ian Kershaw, Tim Mason, Yitzhak Arad, Yisrael Gutman, Raoul Hilberg and so on and on are also sneakily (like me) seeking to suggest that the jews had it coming simply by investigating this question. If you come back on this thread Johnny please have something to say.

Should the blacks have resisted more?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Aktion T-4 was a closely-guarded secret, so it's highly doubtful that the German people "...sat by while he euthanized their retarded kids etc". When it was found out to have happened there was a mass outcry over it.

I'm assuming that the retarded kids had parents.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Aktion When it was found out to have happened there was a mass outcry over it.

Prove it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yeah, led mostly by the Catholic Church, the only organisation which, while colluding with hitler on many other issues, still had a semi-independent power base.

The one organization in Europe that knew for a fact that the holocaust was happening, and that did nothing and said nothing.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The protestant churches which hadn't gone along with the national church (can't remember the exact name)

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The protestant churches which hadn't gone along with the national church (can't remember the exact name) were heavily involved as well. The interesting thing is that both churches only got involved when the Nazi-party-state stepped on their prerogatives - when it was the KPD or the Jews it was 'none of our buiness guv'. Intense dangerous oppostion side by side with not giving much of a fuck.

Why don't you just sit down and rewrite a history book about Nazi Germany, that is consonant with your revisionist beliefs?

 

[butchersapron]

What do you mean by revisionist 'johnny'?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

What do you mean by revisionist 'johnny'?

With so many other books around, I'm sure you have a dictionary handy.

 

[butchersapron]

Wow, Johnny doesn't know that the nazis once in power tried to shanghai the various protestant churces into a national church that was pro-nazi and that this was met with resistance by elements if those churches. There's a suprise.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Wow, Johnny doesn't know that the nazis once in power tried to shanghai the various protestant churces into a national church that was pro-nazi and that this was met with resistance by elements if those churches. There's a suprise.

How far did that resistance get.

 

[butchersapron]

With so many other books around, I'm sure you have a dictionary handy.

I'm asking you. Right here, right now. Let's see if you the honesty to actually say what you mean.

 

[butchersapron]

How far did that resistance get.

Irrelevant to the question of your ill-informed roll-eyes. As i said earlier, do some reading before blundering in like.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm asking you. Right here, right now. Let's see if you the honesty to actually say what you mean.

I did. I called you a revisionist. By that term, I mean the dictionary definition.

ps. How strong were these protestant churches, given that the biggest non catholic church at the time would be the Lutheran Church.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Irrelevant to the question of your ill-informed roll-eyes. As i said earlier, do some reading before blundering in like.

I did do some reading. I read what you say about germany, and announced that you employ revisionist tactics vis a vis the war and nazism, to buttress your agenda concerning Israel.

 

[butchersapron]

Should the blacks have resisted more?

Jesus christ.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Jesus christ.

If you're truly interested in some psychological syndrome whereby victimized people do not resist, some sort of groupthink Stockholm syndrome, then you would be interested in it as it applies to all people in such circumstances, not just the jews/precursors to the israelis.