Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by RedStag, Oct 12, 2018.
I’m in agreement with pretty much every outcome you want PippinTook but Andy is correct here.
I personally have no problem with NI leaving the UK.
There is already provision within the GFA for the voters of NI to leave the UK and join the Republic. I don't think there is provision for them to leave and become an independent country, but that's an option as well.
For all their benefits, the current arrangements seem to me to be a bit of a stitch up, a pretence that NI can be part of the UK but also part of Eire. Those arrangements were always likely to come undone at some point.
And I don't think the possibility of NI voting to stay part of the UK while the rest of us voted for it to leave is one which will be accepted by many...
They also have the option to be a separate country. That way they get to determine their own future. Completely....
The majority in NI will want to remain in the EU. The border between NI and the Republic would then remain an open border.
I'm happy to be corrected, and happy for the people of NI to decide their own future.
Oh I wasn't correcting you.... your points are 100% correct.
Just adding to them.
Mind you...it would not go down well with hard liners on both sides. And it could well lead to civil war again
Technically correct yes but there's no moral or philosophical argument being made there. Yes, most people in the UK voted to leave and yes, most people in Northern Ireland voted to stay. But factor into that the large chunk of Northern Ireland that doesn't even want to be in the UK and it is no longer a matter of simply rattling off facts. Northern Ireland is an artificial entity created to serve an agenda, its existence an excercise in gerrymandering. Peace in Northern Ireland was secured by clawing some power back from the much larger and more powerful UK mainland, and the UK removing Northern Ireland from the EU against the will of its people is a betrayal of both the letter and the spirit of that peace deal.
I don't believe we can call ourselves a democratic union of nations if one of those nations can act against another without the consent of its people. This kind of behaviour is exactly why people voted to leave the EU in the first place, and we will not settle the matter by acting in the same way now.
Best post on this thread...
whose vote counts more? well maybe we should look instead on who is most affected by the outcome - voters in essex or northhamptonshite voted for something that will have minimal consequences for themselves based on abstract notions of sovereignty, an end to freedom of movement cos "foreigns", a chance to take a kick at the political establishment - that will have massive consequences for people in northern lreland.
Its elevating the rule of the majority above community and individual rights. What if a majority of people voted to send all the black people "back home" - or to being back capitol punishment or caning in schools - as they may have 30 years ago - to hold all people with HIV in isolation camps?
(a separate but related issue is how we have all lost our freedom to live and work throughout the rest of europe - becasue "take back control" )
This all goes back to Cameron. The referendum should have been conducted on the explicit condition that a majority in all four nations was required for us to leave the EU. Even then a leave vote would likely have caused greater hardship in the UK's poorest nation than elsewhere, but only then would we be able to speak of brexit having democratic consent.
And again, the notion of a democratic mandate is laughable when the referendum was conducted in such bad faith by both sides. The voices of those wealthy enough to insulate themselves from any consequences were amplified at the expense of those to whom the result really mattered. No impartial information was made available to the electorate. The question of whether one UK nation should have the right to dictate to another was never addressed.
the tyranny of troops and paramilitaries terrorising communities, huge disruption to people lives and livelihoods vs the tyranny of having to walk past a polish deli.
I agree with all of that too!
I guess we are wrestling with some pretty fundamental issues of where power lies (centralism v devolution) and how that can be balanced with a more nebulous feeling of belonging or identity.
I have a great deal of sympathy with the people of the island of Ireland. My favoured solution would be reunification (though it should not be up to me). But if the concept of a national state is to mean anything, it must mean a collective decision being taken on issues such as whether or not we are part of the UK [edit - I mean the EU]. If that results in a break up of the UK then perhaps that shows that the UK was always an artificial construct.
Almost any version of Brexit is likely to cost the Irish republic dearly too. And nobody there even got a vote. For most voices on both team leave and team remain, democracy is a nebulous thing to be invoked when convenient and ignored when not. This is what I mean by bad faith on both sides.
another thing that pisses me off about this argument about "majority of the uk voted leave - tough shit northern ireland" is the idea - even if you could make a convincing philosophical case for it - that it would make a difference to what people feel in northern ireland.
Nobody is going to say - "oh well - that's democracy" - a border will be bitterly resented and violently opposed - thats the reality.
Also the referendum was not about "should there be a hard border with the republic of ireland"? That was a minor issue in the "debate" way down the list behind invasion by hordes of turkish muslims and the NHS brexit bonus.
I don't think that argument is intended to make anyone in NI feel better. I think it is only ever used to make the person who is saying it feel better. It's a rationalisation of a pre-existing condition of not giving a tuppeny fuck about anybody else.
And Gibraltar too
They're not in the EU. Or something. Whatever is convenient for tax purposes.
The offshore territories, dependancies etc are an absurdity and any issue that involves them can only reflect that.
This is one of the core issues. What does a “national state” mean, and to whom? When people try to make it mean that the citizens have a unified identity it’ll come undone. Because it doesn’t and never has meant that.
It's not in the customs union but its border with Spain is likely to harden after Brexit which will affect the people who cross it every day, as well as its economy. It voted by about 98/2 to Remain, so whatever you may think about its status, it's certainly a big deal to its citizens. It may not have the significance of the Irish border but it is the same issue in terms of the local populace's wishes being deemed irrelevant by the overall result.
Ironically the dup extensively funded the Leave campaign in England which adds to the hilarity of the situation.
I guess historically it has been a top-down imposition of power within defined borders. What we are seeing here is that colliding with concepts of localised self-identity as a result of a nation-wide referendum.
the problem is the UK is England with the others tacked on
Scotland 5 million
Wales 3 million
northern Ireland 1.5 million
London 8.5 million so the relation is never going to be one of equals
Also they are net beneficiaries, so while independence sounds great - it has downsides.
The wealth of regions – measuring the UK’s tax and spending imbalance | National Statistical
Not this again. Those stats don’t measure everything. They leave out all the subsidy London gets, because it doesn’t get counted as subsidy.
Patrick Kielty ( whose father was murdered during the 'Troubles' ) tweeted about the folly of messing with the GFA a few weeks ago, quite informative I thought;
On paper London pays for everyone else, but in reality London is only able to do so because it sponges off everyone else.
And were not required to disclose where they got the money from as I recall.
And to be clear that isn’t “everyone in London”, but the infrastructure, physical and institutional, and so on.
LMAO - you don't even know the basic facts = 0% credibility
Graham Norton - I thought he was Irish anyways, so bugger all to do with him
considering Scotland only recently REJECTED the idea of Scottish independence , then they've already decided.
As for Wales, do you know of any clamour for a referendum on their independence? No, thought not
Empire is what made Britain Great - so what the F are you whining about - or would you prefer to be a Bangladeshi working for 10pence an hour?
And of course, you say welcome to the migrants, but it was the lack of control of this which led to Brexit in the first place, ie. the fault of the PC brigade left
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