Why aren't the Lib-Dems and Tories involved in the anti-fascist movement?

[Al Kahul]

There is of course another reason and that is amply demonstrated right here. people like me who certainly have a great antipathy for fascists would be not be treated as welcome on any demonstration. I'm a linbertarian (or in ethw ords of some here a 'classic liberal".I'm quite certain that people like Nino Savatte ,and Butchers apron would be insulting and attacking me for my lack of socialism.

20 oddyears agao there was a group called Conservative CND .They certainly weren't large but as soon as they got onto teh podium to speak at a conference they were booed.Surprisingly it disbanded pretty quickly afterwards as the real raison d'etre of CND became apparent to them,

 

[butchersapron]

Which was?

 

[Al Kahul]

which was to be a part of a process to disband NATO and leave Europe weaker against the Soviet union and thereby aid the spread of Soviet influence.

 

[butchersapron]

CND was a red front? Was this desire to sustain and extend 'the spread of Soviet influence.' the stated aims of the leaders or were they their secret hidden aims?

 

[dylanredefined]

They were anti nato ,but,more on the ground "war is bad ok "than any pro soviet policy .With nato disarming the theory went the warsaw pact would disarm as well.

 

[Blagsta]

which was to be a part of a process to disband NATO and leave Europe weaker against the Soviet union and thereby aid the spread of Soviet influence.

You're nuts.

 

[butchersapron]

He's defending Pinochet's coup on another thread. If this is his 'left-liberatianism' i wonder just how bad his right-libertarian comrades must be...

 

[Al Kahul]

I'm certainly doing no such thing but as I predicted you would soon be lying.
Describing history is not the same as defending one side or another.

Butchers apron is henceforth ignored

 

[butchersapron]

You didn't 'describe' anything you offered a friendly,tendentious and factually inaccurate picture of Pinochet's murderous coup. I pointed out the errors in your post. And every single substantive point of fact was incorrect. You ignored this, and instead of dealing with your 'mistakes' you put me on ignore.

What daring free-thinkers you left-libertarians are!

 

[Al Kahul]

They were anti nato ,but,more on the ground "war is bad ok "than any pro soviet policy .With nato disarming the theory went the warsaw pact would disarm as well.

strangely they contained an awfull lot of communists didn't they ?


from CNN

There were also claims of covert Soviet funding of Western anti-nuclear groups. In 1982, John McMahon, deputy director of the CIA, testified before Congress that the U.S.S.R. had channeled $100 million annually to the Western disarmament movement, and that such funds "enabled the movement to grow beyond its own capabilities."

The recent opening of files in East Germany reveals that the Stasi, or state secret police, were active within East German peace groups, Herf says. But he adds that the most important aspects of Soviet peace policy in Europe, especially in West Germany, were public. Fear of nuclear war, he argues, overwhelmed any differences the anti-nuclear groups saw between Soviet dictatorship and Western democracy.

"Everybody knew the Soviet Union was financing peace events, saying the United States was going to blow up the world. Were (anti-nuclear groups) tools of the Soviet Union? If so, only unconsciously. The mood of the peace movement was 'a plague on both your houses.'"

 

[Jeff Robinson]

strangely they contained an awfull lot of communists didn't they ?


from CNN

There were also claims of covert Soviet funding of Western anti-nuclear groups. In 1982, John McMahon, deputy director of the CIA, testified before Congress that the U.S.S.R. had channeled $100 million annually to the Western disarmament movement, and that such funds "enabled the movement to grow beyond its own capabilities."

The recent opening of files in East Germany reveals that the Stasi, or state secret police, were active within East German peace groups, Herf says. But he adds that the most important aspects of Soviet peace policy in Europe, especially in West Germany, were public. Fear of nuclear war, he argues, overwhelmed any differences the anti-nuclear groups saw between Soviet dictatorship and Western democracy.

"Everybody knew the Soviet Union was financing peace events, saying the United States was going to blow up the world. Were (anti-nuclear groups) tools of the Soviet Union? If so, only unconsciously. The mood of the peace movement was 'a plague on both your houses.'"

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8092109&postcount=21

 

[butchersapron]

"Everybody knew the Soviet Union was financing peace events, saying the United States was going to blow up the world. Were (anti-nuclear groups) tools of the Soviet Union? If so, only unconsciously. The mood of the peace movement was 'a plague on both your houses.'"

You don't even read your own sources do you?

Square this, from your own link, with your claim of concious activity ("strangely they contained an awfull lot of communists didn't they ?") aimed at aiding "the spread of Soviet influence." please.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm certainly doing no such thing but as I predicted you would soon be lying.
Describing history is not the same as defending one side or another.

Butchers apron is henceforth ignored

You're claiming that you're putting across an ideologically neutral view of history? Really?

 

[Al Kahul]

You're claiming that you're putting across an ideologically neutral view of history? Really?

since I don't in anyway support Pinnochet then sure.

What you mean is that because I don't worship allende but find him a fool who fuckedup and created the conditions for the right to sieze power I must somehow support Pinnochet.

I suppose you think any criticism of the republican cause in the Spanish civil war somehow means I support Franco or indeed the fact that Eisenhower Didn't move faster to Berlin means I'm really pro Hitler.

Butchers Apron LIED about what I said .Its a tactic common to people who think like him. I have no more interest in him or his friends who adopt the same tactic.

 

[butchersapron]

This is amazing, tell you what i'll post up the link to your 'description' and the following posts that point out the numerous fatal errors, errors which totally undermine your ridiculous version of history. Hereon in

You make the sort of crude ranting polemical far right vesrions look sophisticated by contrast.

 

[nino_savatte]

It might be the presence and actions of vocal Left extremists that put off anti fascists who are lib dems or tories.

I think that there is a need to get more mainstream people involved in anti fascist work.

If it is all done by those who are members of a left ghetto then you lose much potential for support from those who are normally in their view non political.

Excuse me while I piss myself laughing.

 

[nino_savatte]

Marches and demos are a big part of the social life of 'lefties'.Its really a recreational activity followed by a meet up at various pubs . You go through a ritual activity followed by refreshment.Its just an alternative to being a Mason.

Conservatives and Lib dems don't have swathes of activists .They have a few party apparatchiks who are soley concerned with party issues but young right wing and centrist people tend to spend their free time elswhere than politics. The young Conservative movement was always about meeting the opposite sex and planning social events than doing anything political.

You need to ask yourself why that is without resorting to the usual clichés trotted out by r/w commentators (but you have already fallen back to that position with your remarks about "recreation")...but I know that there is as much chance of that happening as you suddenly admitting you made up a load of stuff about Pinochet's coup.

The only time the Right ever march is when they do so in support of fox-hunting and so-called "Countryside" issues; two things that are very close to the hearts of landowners and their hangers-on.

 

[nino_savatte]

There is of course another reason and that is amply demonstrated right here. people like me who certainly have a great antipathy for fascists would be not be treated as welcome on any demonstration. I'm a linbertarian (or in ethw ords of some here a 'classic liberal".I'm quite certain that people like Nino Savatte ,and Butchers apron would be insulting and attacking me for my lack of socialism.

20 oddyears agao there was a group called Conservative CND .They certainly weren't large but as soon as they got onto teh podium to speak at a conference they were booed.Surprisingly it disbanded pretty quickly afterwards as the real raison d'etre of CND became apparent to them,

You really have got a persecution complex. I am reminded that many who describe themselves as "libertarian" are in favour of the liberation of markets which they theorise will free society in turn. Economic freedoms do not translate directly into political freedoms - Chile being a case in point.

 

[Blagsta]

since I don't in anyway support Pinnochet then sure.

What you mean is that because I don't worship allende but find him a fool who fuckedup and created the conditions for the right to sieze power I must somehow support Pinnochet.

I suppose you think any criticism of the republican cause in the Spanish civil war somehow means I support Franco or indeed the fact that Eisenhower Didn't move faster to Berlin means I'm really pro Hitler.

Butchers Apron LIED about what I said .Its a tactic common to people who think like him. I have no more interest in him or his friends who adopt the same tactic.

I think you're dishonest and not as clever as you think you are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think you're dishonest and not as clever as you think you are.

Well, it's that self-confidence that private schools instill into their charges, isn't it? The whole "bullshit baffles brains" schtick. It's not "dishonesty", it's "original fiction-based thought".

 

[lights.out.london]

Stupidity is not a class issue.

 

[Al Kahul]

I think you're dishonest and not as clever as you think you are.

right...just like your lying mates (now on ignore) don't misrepresent everything ?

Dishonest ? about what ?

You have to either approve of Pinnochet OR Castro as if one dictator is always right ? I know that the left has an appalling capability to be human rights activists on one hand then conveniently ignore it when done by their 'own side'.You fail to appreciate that not everyone is like you . Just because Pinnochet initiated Market reforms does not ,in my eyes,lend him any legitimacy.Just because Allende was violently overthrown does not sanctify him or show him up as anything but an Idiot ,way out of his depth.

 

[nino_savatte]

Pinochet has one "n". But a public school educated toff like you should have known that already.

 

[In Bloom]

You have to either approve of Pinnochet OR Castro as if one dictator is always right ?

WTF does Castro have to do with anything, you insane idiot?

 

[Al Kahul]

Its a response to the suggestion that Pinnochet is the 'Fidel' for the right and theres a lot of truth in it. (you barking loser)

 

[nino_savatte]

It's bollocks and you still can't spell for toffee.

 

[Blagsta]

right...just like your lying mates (now on ignore) don't misrepresent everything ?

Dishonest ? about what ?

You have to either approve of Pinnochet OR Castro as if one dictator is always right ? I know that the left has an appalling capability to be human rights activists on one hand then conveniently ignore it when done by their 'own side'.You fail to appreciate that not everyone is like you . Just because Pinnochet initiated Market reforms does not ,in my eyes,lend him any legitimacy.Just because Allende was violently overthrown does not sanctify him or show him up as anything but an Idiot ,way out of his depth.

What "lying mates"? Eh?

 

[ViolentPanda]

What "lying mates"? Eh?

That'd probably be a reference to myself, Nino_Savatte, butchersapron and FridgeMagnet (all of whom all has put on "ignore"). Apparently we "misrepresent" what Al says and are "dishonest" and "liars" because we (like you) dare to question the sagaciousness, the brilliance, the vast wisdom of the great Al Kahul.

He's a bit of a cunt, you see. Doesn't like to be picked up on anything, even when he's patently talking ahistoric bollocks.

 

[lights.out.london]

right...just like your lying mates (now on ignore) don't misrepresent everything ?

Dishonest ? about what ?

You have to either approve of Pinnochet OR Castro as if one dictator is always right ? I know that the left has an appalling capability to be human rights activists on one hand then conveniently ignore it when done by their 'own side'.You fail to appreciate that not everyone is like you . Just because Pinnochet initiated Market reforms does not ,in my eyes,lend him any legitimacy.Just because Allende was violently overthrown does not sanctify him or show him up as anything but an Idiot ,way out of his depth.

I'd be interested to read your analysis of the Monetarist experiment in Peru and Chile. Let's face it; Friedman took the piss and the UK and USA took the 'advantages' of the findings of the experiement, under Thatcher and Reagan.

It's disingenious to compare a militarist like Pinochet to someone like Castro. I'm not a huge fan of Castro post 1970s, but we're talking apples and pears here.

The Left's obsession with 'Rights', whatever they are, is tiring. But it's a damned-sight more honest than the Right, who speak of inalienable rights....and then...well...check out Dubya and Co for a modern example of Right wing lies about personal freedoms and liberty.

 

[Al Kahul]

I'd be interested to read your analysis of the Monetarist experiment in Peru and Chile. Let's face it; Friedman took the piss and the UK and USA took the 'advantages' of the findings of the experiement, under Thatcher and Reagan.

It's disingenious to compare a militarist like Pinochet to someone like Castro. I'm not a huge fan of Castro post 1970s, but we're talking apples and pears here.

The Left's obsession with 'Rights', whatever they are, is tiring. But it's a damned-sight more honest than the Right, who speak of inalienable rights....and then...well...check out Dubya and Co for a modern example of Right wing lies about personal freedoms and liberty.

Pinnochet and Castro -Both ex dictators who murdered about 3000 people and stopped all dissent in their home countries.

You love one because he is your Socialist hero. I hate them both.