Why are the swp so popular?

[Roadkill]

The SWP aren't popular. Their membership is plummeting and they're less visible than they've ever been. Greenman is probably right that the growth of the internet has rendered the paper an irrelevance, and that IMHO is symptomatic of the fact that the far left in general are living in the past, fighting the battles and using the organisational structures of seventy years ago. No wonder they're a laughing stock.

That said, I've always suspected, and still think, that the venom directed at them from much of the rest of the far left is largely sour grapes because the swappies are bigger and have usually been more adept at mobilising people than whatever irrelevant sect is shouting abuse at them this week. Either that, or it originates in some nitpicking ideological dispute that few people are even interested in, still less understand. Tbh it never ceases to amaze me how almost any thread here can (but does not necessarily) turn into Trot-baiting within the space of a few posts.

 

[dennisr]

The SWP aren't popular. Their membership is plummeting and they're less visible than they've ever been. Greenman is probably right that the growth of the internet has rendered the paper an irrelevance, and that IMHO is symptomatic of the fact that the far left in general are living in the past, fighting the battles and using the organisational structures of seventy years ago. No wonder they're a laughing stock.

That said, I've always suspected, and still think, that the venom directed at them from much of the rest of the far left is largely sour grapes because the swappies are bigger and have usually been more adept at mobilising people than whatever irrelevant sect is shouting abuse at them this week. Either that, or it originates in some nitpicking ideological dispute that few people are even interested in, still less understand. Tbh it never ceases to amaze me how almost any thread here can (but does not necessarily) turn into Trot-baiting within the space of a few posts.

There may well be some truth in what you say. But I think the distaste among actual activists is mainly the result of attempting to work with the SWP over the last few years - their actions in a whole number of areas - trade union work, building a united left (the SAs, SSP, Respect), anti-racist/fascist work.

Even my lot have now gone to the length of trying to draw out the lessons by writing a book on the subject....

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/Resourcesframe.htm

Socialism and Left Unity A critique of the Socialist Workers Party by Peter Taaffe - This book is for socialists who are aware of the policies of the SWP, including SWP members who can still be won to genuine Marxism. The wrong methods of the SWP hinder the task of rebuilding the labour movement on socialist and Marxist lines.

 

[_float_]

What has anarchism achieved in Britain in the last 40 years?

What has the SWP achieved in Britain in the last 40 years?

Also you are making the wrong comparison.

You need to compare SWP affiliation with the number of people who are ideologically on the left/progressive but are unaffiliated to *any* group or party.

 

[Roadkill]

Socialism and Left Unity A critique of the Socialist Workers Party by Peter Taaffe - This book is for socialists who are aware of the policies of the SWP, including SWP members who can still be won to genuine Marxism. The wrong methods of the SWP hinder the task of rebuilding the labour movement on socialist and Marxist lines.

That looks like yet more sectarian squabbling between two parties whose combined membership wouldn't fill one stand of an average-sized football stadium, and whose differences are only intelligible to people who've read into the history of British Trotskyism. And people wonder why the far left get nowhere...

 

[dennisr]

That looks like yet more sectarian squabbling between two parties whose combined membership wouldn't fill one stand of an average-sized football stadium, and whose differences are only intelligible to people who've read into the history of British Trotskyism. And people wonder why the far left get nowhere...

does it = how would you know this? can you read minds as well? quite the expert.

 

[Roadkill]

does it = how would you know this? can you read minds as well? quite the expert.

Oh come on! A book aimed winning swappies to 'genuine Marxism,' by a party whose ideological gap from the swappies is fag paper-thin. What else is it?

 

[dennisr]

Oh come on! A book aimed winning swappies to 'genuine Marxism,' by a party whose ideological gap from the swappies is fag paper-thin. What else is it?

the original reply to your original post stands then

 

[Roadkill]

the original reply to your original post stands then

More to the point, so does my contention that the whole of the Trot left is an irrelevant laughing stock more interested in yelling incomprehensible sectarian abuse at each other than actually achieving anything.

<e2a> I've not been active on the left for a while. Every time I wonder about getting involved again, reading a few threads in this forum is enough to put me right back off again.

 

[audiotech]

Socialism and Left Unity A critique of the Socialist Workers Party by Peter Taaffe - .

Ha! Any mention of the SP walking from the Socialist Alliance when the one member, one vote was carried?

I'll try and give that book a read, must be a better than that piece of crap written by Deggsie all those years ago?

I can still here Militant supporters chanting:

'Derek Hatton, Derek Hatton, we'll support you evermore.....'

 

[dennisr]

More to the point, so does my contention that the whole of the Trot left is an irrelevant laughing stock more interested in yelling incomprehensible sectarian abuse at each other than actually achieving anything.

I listed work just a small bit of that has been carried out by the SP in my first post. but apparently that is just 'incomprehensible sectarian abuse'. The book is an attempt to go beyond the very thing you earlier critisised - but then you resort to the very same 'incomprehensible sectarian abuse' you accuse others of... not much point chatting is there, given you already know whats 'right' apparently - you can even know the content of a book based on one line in a post on u75 - thats a gift that is.

 

[dennisr]

Ha! Any mention of the SP walking from the Socialist Alliance when the one member, one vote was carried?

I'll try and give that book a read, must be a better than that piece of crap written by Deggsie all those years ago?

I can still here Militant supporters chanting:

'Derek Hatton, Derek Hatton, we'll support you evermore.....'

now that the classic 'incomprehensible sectarian abuse' (with added smilies to show he's 'down with the kids') that roadkill mentioned - he learnt a lot in the SWP

And yes, MC5 - all is clearly and honestly explained - as is the closing down of the SAs by the SWP less than a year and a half later as a result of the vote that abolished that old british left federal tradition

 

[Roadkill]

I listed work just a small bit of that has been carried out by the SP in my first post. but apparently that is just 'incomprehensible sectarian abuse'. The book is an attempt to go beyond the very thing you earlier critisised - but then you resort to the very same 'incomprehensible sectarian abuse' you accuse others of... not much point chatting is there, given you already know whats 'right' apparently - you can even know the content of a book based on one line in a post on u75 - thats a gift that is.

See edit to post above ... and then try and see how all of this party tribalism looks to someone not active in that milieu. That's the point I'm trying to get across to you...

 

[audiotech]

now that the classic 'incomprehensible sectarian abuse'...

Deggsy started it.

 

[dennisr]

See edit to post above ... and then try and see how all of this party tribalism looks to someone not active in that milieu. That's the point I'm trying to get across to you...

And that a fair enough point you make.

This was a post on a site full of people who obssess over the minutie of the left and have a particular fetish with the SWP and 'trots' generally though rather than my union branch meeting or my ta meeting or down the pub with my mates (where I would not raise the book)

 

[audiotech]

now that the classic 'incomprehensible sectarian abuse' (with added smilies to show he's 'down with the kids') that roadkill mentioned - he learnt a lot in the SWP

And yes, MC5 - all is clearly and honestly explained - as is the closing down of the SAs by the SWP less than a year and a half later as a result of the vote that abolished that old british left federal tradition

Seriously, I'll give it a read.

 

[dennisr]

Deggsy started it.

'sold down the mersey' gave him the excuse

 

[dennisr]

Seriously, I'll give it a read.

I'd genuinely be interested in your views.

 

[dennisr]

<e2a> I've not been active on the left for a while. Every time I wonder about getting involved again, reading a few threads in this forum is enough to put me right back off again.

yep, I can fully understand that. but this site isn't activism, its not really an activist site - there plenty going on and plenty more needed doing where you will find other left activists and none.

people don't spend their entire lives going on the way they do here - you know that though

anyway - tara - still a couple of hours work to do before I knock off for the eve... *glum*

 

[Roadkill]

And that a fair enough point you make.

This was a post on a site full of people who obssess over the minutie of the left and have a particular fetish with the SWP and 'trots' generally though rather than my union branch meeting or my ta meeting or down the pub with my mates (where I would not raise the book)

Point taken, but only up to a point. One reason I don't post in this forum all that often is the amount of sectarian infighting (and especially swappie-baiting) that goes on, and I know that goes for quite a lot of other people. Hence the opportunity to work off some irritation on yet another SWP thread! Anyhow, having said my piece I'll disappear again...

<e2a> Sorry, cross-posts. Yes, you're right about people not sounding off quite as much in real life as on here - well, in most cases anyway. I can think of a couple of people I've encountered who were just as vocal in real life, and with the waving arms and flecks of spittle you don't get through a computer screen...

 

[tbaldwin]

A load of us on here despise them bitterly when they are a big part of the left.
Meanwhile nothing opposing them on the left has got anywhere near they numbers.

Good fred!

I would say that there popularity is down to two things.

1 They have a plan.

2 They communicate ideas in a fairly straightforward way to people.


Admittedly there plan is not that good. But it is a bit better than some on the left who are frightened of anything that looks like it might be described as a programme etc....

And the way they communicate comes across as hysterical to most people but some people want to hear the things they say in the way that they say them.

 

[JHE]

Why are the swp so popular?

Most of the popularity of 'The Party' can be attributed to its well-established virtues:

• Charm
• Wisdom
• Co-operation
• Prescience

It is, after all, the memory of the class.

However, we must not forget the splendid success of the Social Workers' strategy of Islamo-Trottery. By sucking up to keen mosque-attenders and niqab-wearers, 'The Party' has gained mass support among Mohammedans - except among the Social Workers' Mohammedan ex-partners in al-Respeq, who think the Social Workers are a bunch of useless bossy sectarians.

Allahu trot-not!

 

[chilango]

As always an SWP thread dissolves into the predictable.

Leaving these responses aside, there is the kernel of an interesting question here.

Namely, what did the SWP do to assume its leading position? As mentioned above it was a a lot to with "brand recognition" and being energetic and organised around certain types of activity. Thus, as said above, being a first port of call for the politically inclined.

So two questions follow this:

1) Could a similar modus operandi be ado/apted today? Could good edsign skills, viral marketing, web based social networking etc, be applied to a political movement now?

2) If it could, would that initself make the movement succesful? Or do we need to move beyond the level of appearances? Is image half the battle in today's world? Or are such messages part of the problem?



Hmmm

*awaits half a dozen pages of bickering about Liverpool in 1981 interspersed with occasional references to islamotrottery*

 

[dennisr]

As always an SWP thread dissolves into the predictable.

Leaving these responses aside, there is the kernel of an interesting question here.

Namely, what did the SWP do to assume its leading position? As mentioned above it was a a lot to with "brand recognition" and being energetic and organised around certain types of activity. Thus, as said above, being a first port of call for the politically inclined.

So two questions follow this:

1) Could a similar modus operandi be ado/apted today? Could good edsign skills, viral marketing, web based social networking etc, be applied to a political movement now?

2) If it could, would that initself make the movement succesful? Or do we need to move beyond the level of appearances? Is image half the battle in today's world? Or are such messages part of the problem?



Hmmm

*awaits half a dozen pages of bickering about Liverpool in 1981 interspersed with occasional references to islamotrottery*

they are good at presentation - i think folk can learn a lot from them on that

 

[chilango]

they are good at presentation - i think folk can learn a lot from them on that

Well were good at presentation. They never really kept up once DTP and stuff like photoshop became widespread. As for multimedia...

But, yes, it was one of their strengths. They seemed by far the most omnipresent lefty group visually.


However, is the creation of an illusion of stength a useful tactic?

It can create confidence and attract people / in the same way that attending a demo can.

It reduces the feeling of isolation and powerlessness, for sure.

but beyond that?

...and how would we do a similar thing today? (if we wanted to?)

 

[dennisr]

But, yes, it was one of their strengths. They seemed by far the most omnipresent lefty group visually.

However, is the creation of an illusion of stength a useful tactic?

...and how would we do a similar thing today? (if we wanted to?)

Two things really - of course you are right - one needs the politics to back up the clever presentation of those politics (but that brings me back to raising Liverpool 19.... etc etc.... well, you see where I could go with that point).

The other thing is that i think looking omnipresent is only possible for folk without the politics at a time when the working class as a whole is on the back foot - when there are no major struggles (yep, there has been the anti-war movement but that was not exactly raised to a higher level of class struggle). Someone used the idea that its easier to sound bigger than you are in an empty vessel - in a vacuam - (not sure how that works in practice.... but I get the point they are making). We are now 'entering a period' (to use the jargon...) where stunts and marches will not be enough - a more serious approach is required - where ideas and practice can be 'tested'.

Having said that, those ideas and that practice will be easier to get across if they are presented better. I think my own organisation has a lot to learn - sometimes we have achieved things, in a sense, despite our amater approach rather than because of it - more by shear effort/will (alongside our political approach). But we can learn

 

[chilango]

Two things really - of course you are right - one needs the politics to back up the clever presentation of those politics (but that brings me back to raising Liverpool 19.... etc etc.... well, you see where I could go with that point).

The other thing is that i think looking omnipresent is only possible for folk without the politics at a time when the working class as a whole is on the back foot - when there are no major struggles (yep, there has been the anti-war movement but that was not exactly raised to a higher level of class struggle). Someone used the idea that its easier to sound bigger than you are in a vacuam (not sure how that works in practice.... but I get the point they are making). We are now 'entering a period' (to use the jargon...) where stunts and marches will not be enough - a more serious approach is required - where ideas and practice can be 'tested'.

Having said that, those ideas and that practice will be easier to get across if they are presented better. I think my own organisation has a lot to learn - sometimes we have achieved things, in a sense, despite our amater approach rather than because of it - more by shear effort/will (alongside our political approach). But we can learn

Of course.

The whole Liverpool thing, regardless of the minutae, was a big deal involving actual stuff. I remember reading about it day after day in the Daily Post as a kid...and I think when it gets to that point aesthetics are not exactly top of the agenda.

I also think you are very right about filling the vacuum as it were, when not so much stuff is going on. The political orgs often are trying to create stuff in terms of marches, demos, campaigns etc. They, then need to market this stuff because its not already prominent in peoples daily lives.

Are we entering a "period" now? You'd think so wouldn't you? Though I don't know. I don't know how distracted we all are by trivia and so on...time will soon tell on that one.

Your last point is interesting. Whe things get serious and people are looking to dom something about it, there is an element of risk, and therefore trust about it. if a group cannot put together a proffesional looking poster or website, will people trust that group when fighting for their home, their job etc? I suppose its an element of professionalism. Just as you'd be cautious about apllying for a job with a company with a hotmail email address or a geocities website y'know. Its a bit shoddy.

 

[nightbreed]

So two questions follow this:

1) Could a similar modus operandi be ado/apted today? Could good edsign skills, viral marketing, web based social networking etc, be applied to a political movement now?

2) If it could, would that initself make the movement succesful? Or do we need to move beyond the level of appearances? Is image half the battle in today's world? Or are such messages part of the problem?



Hmmm

Actually getting involved in the workplace rather than standing outside looking in sometimes helps

 

[nightbreed]

the recent wildcats in southampton transit - SP led;

While the SP has played a prominent part in the NSSN support group, I dont know of any SP members who actually work in the Fords Plant in Southampton. Fair play to the SP for organising the meetings outside the plant.
Two leading Southampton SP members were portrayed as Fords workers. See their picture here.

I know for a fact that one is a self employed gardener and one is a care worker.

 

[dennisr]

While the SP has played a prominent part in the NSSN support group, I dont know of any SP members who actually work in the Fords Plant in Southampton. Fair play to the SP for organising the meetings outside the plant.
Two leading Southampton SP members were portrayed as Fords workers. See their picture here.

I know for a fact that one is a self employed gardener and one is a care worker.

Yes, thats the support group folk I cannot help the idiocy of local newspaper reporters - a car (actually transit van...) worker spoke at the Soc 08 event, the rally last saturday - I don't know if he formally joined through the dispute or was around before but I suspect before because he contacted the SP to get them to do the work from the outside that could not be done 'publicly' inside. The identities of the actual car workers are kept secret for obvious reasons (ie given they are up against both management and union 'leadership'). They have been working with a certain long-time ex-car-plant organiser (BM - you probably know him of old) and the convener, SP Wales member, who has played the key role in the disputes over the last couple of years in wales

you in southampton at the moment NB? - I imagine you would know NC (the fella in the pic) already

 

[nightbreed]

Yes, thats the support group folk I cannot help the idiocy of local newspaper reporters - a car (actually transit van...) worker spoke at the Soc 08 event, the rally last saturday - I don't know if he formally joined through the dispute or was around before but I suspect before because he contacted the SP to get them to do the work from the outside that could not be done 'publicly' inside. The identities of the actual car workers are kept secret for obvious reasons (ie given they are up against both management and union 'leadership'). They have been working with a certain long-time ex-car-plant organiser (BM - you probably know him of old) and the convener, SP Wales member, who has played the key role in the disputes over the last couple of years in wales

you in southampton at the moment NB? - I imagine you would know NC (the fella in the pic) already

Yes