Who was the greatest WWII General/Field Marshall?

[free spirit]

Who was that?

erm, not sure, I'll go have a look.

 

[Bakunin]

erm, not sure, I'll go have a look.

General Yamashita IIRC.

 

[free spirit]

yup, Lt-General Tomoyuki Yamashita.

In the sort of decision that is rare among military commanders, he had reduced his attacking force from 5 divisions to 3, believing this to be the largest force he could control while keeping the momentum of the advance...<snip>
Outnumbered 3 to 1, Yamashita had inflicted upon the British what Churchill described as the largest capitulation and the worst military disaster in their whole history.

[Blood, Tears & Folly - Len Deighton]

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

yup, Lt-General Tomoyuki Yamashita.

[Blood, Tears & Folly - Len Deighton]

He was also the commander of the Philippines at the time of the Bataan Death March, and he was executed for war crimes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

not, of course, to be confused with the schlieffen plan.

or even the von Schlieffen plan.

 

[Belushi]

Any girls posted on this thread yet?

 

[ViolentPanda]

...which shouldn't be confused with the Von Schlieffen plan...

Small "v" on the von, Johnny.

 

[ViolentPanda]

or the Stifler plan for that matter.

Who was Stiffler planning to stifle, then?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Any girls posted on this thread yet?

Only you!

 

[free spirit]

He was also the commander of the Philippines at the time of the Bataan Death March, and he was executed for war crimes.

no he wasn't.

General Homma was in command of the philippines at that point, and was executed for that particular warcrime.

Yamashita only assumed control of the philipines 10 days before the Americans invaded in October 1944, and the attrocities that he was found guilty of were arguably not his fault being as he'd ordered his troops out of Manila to avoid civilian casualties, but was disobeyed by a Navy officer (Rear Admiral Sanji Iwabuchi ), who re-occupied the city with his sailors, commandeered remaining army units, resulting in the Manila Massacre for which Yamashita was tried and found guilty.

Earlier in the war in 1941 Yamashita had executed the Officer responsible for a hospital masacre in Singapore, which would seem to illustrate where he stood on how war should be fought.

As far as I can see he was essentially found guilty in a show trial, he was the first Japanese officer to be tried for war crimes, and needed to be made an example of. The Japanese Army and Navy had entirely seperate chains of command, and were basically fierce rivals, yet he was an army general found guilty of being in command of attrocities committed under the direct command of a Navy Officer who'd gone against Yamashita's orders.

 

[agricola]

Surprised noone else voted for Guderian - not only he was (nearly) single-handedly responsible for developing and implementing the German interpretation of armoured warfare that enabled their victories in the early part of the war, he also led those armies himself in order to achieve those victories. That is something that very few generals in history can boast of, certainly noone in WW2 was able to do it (Tukhachevsky would have, had he not been bumped off).

Hitler not using him in an effective role between the end of 1941 and Summer 1944 (when it was far too late for him to have altered things) was of immense good fortune for the Allies, IMHO.

 

[Andy the Don]

Zhukov was not the greatest tactician and wasted men and materials in frontal assualts proceeded by massive artillery bombardments. He had a habit of feeding unit after unit into the mincer knowing that weight of numbers would win the day for him. A great commander will value the lives of his forces and not send them on frontal suicide missions.

 

[kyser_soze]

I would have voted for Rommel, but he was a bit on the mercurial, throw it against the wall and see what sticks, type.

That's why I voted for him! Great Generals should never be doctrinaire, and always be prepared to trash everything as the situation changes tactically and strategically. This is also why I haven't voted for Zhukov - he might have been a huge help, but the cost he exacted from his troops was appalling.

 

[el-ahrairah]

I would have voted for Rommel, but he was a bit on the mercurial, throw it against the wall and see what sticks, type.

This is why I voted for him. Though Paulus was a great general too. Not that I'm a Nazi or anything, I am just more interested in them because of the environment in which they operated. It makes the dramas greater and the personalities more extreme.

 

[kyser_soze]

That's why I voted for him! Great Generals should never be doctrinaire, and always be prepared to trash everything as the situation changes tactically and strategically. This is also why I haven't voted for Zhukov - he might have been a huge help, but the cost he exacted from his troops was appalling.

This is why I voted for him. Though Paulus was a great general too. Not that I'm a Nazi or anything, I am just more interested in them because of the environment in which they operated. It makes the dramas greater and the personalities more extreme.

 

[DotCommunist]

I voted Rommel, but you've got to give some props to macarthur

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Zhukov was not the greatest tactician and wasted men and materials in frontal assualts proceeded by massive artillery bombardments. He had a habit of feeding unit after unit into the mincer knowing that weight of numbers would win the day for him. A great commander will value the lives of his forces and not send them on frontal suicide missions.

Also, he apparently ordered that the families of any soldier captured at the Leningrad front by the Germans should be shot!!

My dad served under Montgomery and told me a story that in a briefing after one battle (not sure which one) he roundly congratulated his officers but added: "Not enough dead Germans. Next time I want to see a lot more dead Germans."
But he wore a funny hat so I'll vote for him.

 

[Hollis]

Monty was generally well-regarded with his men 'cause he was cautions.. then again the Brits didn't have as many to kill off as the Ruskies so had to be abit careful..

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Also, he apparently ordered that the families of any soldier captured at the Leningrad front by the Germans should be shot!!.

I don't know if Zhukov made that order, but Stalin made similar orders. e.g. many of the soviet troops who had been taken POW were killed upon returning to Russia.

They'd become 'contaminated', by contact with western capitalist soldiers etc, and therefore were a danger to the Soviet Union.

 

[Hollis]

Read Max Hastings 'Armegeddon' - all sorts of shit going on in the Russian army.. amazed anyone survived tbh..

 

[DotCommunist]

tbf most accounts from the eastern front are horrific.

 

[Belushi]

The Russian Army is still fucking horrific if you're a young conscript.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I voted Zhukov - mainly beacasue Stalingrad and Kursk were probably the two most decisive victories of WW2.

However Kesslering should get a mention for how he tied down the Allies in Italy for years despite being heavily outnumbered in terms of numbers, munitions, air-cover, artillery, armour etc.

Rommel was billiant on the offensive but his plans for defeating the Overlord invasion were flawed. He expeceted them to land in Calias, and - huge amount of effort - his 'atlantic wall' was easily breached on D-Day. He was also in Berlin on 6th June because he calculated that the Allies would not invade that day cos of the weather. Bit of a major 'doh!' really.

 

[kyser_soze]

However Kesslering should get a mention for how he tied down the Allies in Italy for years despite being heavily outnumbered in terms of numbers, munitions, air-cover, artillery, armour etc.

Geographical advantage played a big role in Italy tho - lots of big hills and deep valleys.

 

[Spion]

I've gone for Guderian, simply on the grounds of being the figure most associated with Blitzkrieg, which is what everyone did once the Germans 'popularised' it.

Alternatively I'd be tempted to go for Montgomery, who really sorted shit out in North Africa. The situation needed methodical work to be done on training and tactics and he did that. Sure, in some ways what he did in that respect shares a lot with getting a bus company to work properly, but you don't win wars without the dull shit that simply needs doing (See Rommel for how not to do it). Monty knew the value of PR too.

 

[Spion]

My dad served under Montgomery and told me a story that in a briefing after one battle (not sure which one) he roundly congratulated his officers but added: "Not enough dead Germans. Next time I want to see a lot more dead Germans.".

I remember seeing a documentary yonks ago in which Montgomery's pre-Alamein speech to the troops explicitly demanded that they kill lots of Germans.

The 8th army had a lot of 'problems' with fraternisation in the desert, with troops out on patrol and on water runs getting friendly with the opposition

 

[Spion]

Zhukov was not the greatest tactician and wasted men and materials in frontal assualts proceeded by massive artillery bombardments. He had a habit of feeding unit after unit into the mincer knowing that weight of numbers would win the day for him. A great commander will value the lives of his forces and not send them on frontal suicide missions.

This is also why I haven't voted for Zhukov - he might have been a huge help, but the cost he exacted from his troops was appalling.

I'd have to say that with the Soviets, playing their advantage in numbers probably had a lot to do with a) having those numbers and b) using them as compensation for deficiencies in equipment and the technical skills of their troops. In other words, they used the men and material they had as best they could.

 

[likesfish]

The Russian Army is still fucking horrific if you're a young conscript.

or if your fighting against it .
some of the stories heard about chenchenya

strangely phil shiner does seem so keen to to poke about looking for cases to represent there.

 

[Spion]

Why would he, you fuckwit? Birmingham's not exactly close to Chechnya

 

[rekil]

I voted Rommel, but you've got to give some props to macarthur

MacArthur was a disgraceful cunt and mentalist who should've been shot for his role in breaking up the bonus army march.