beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Maybe, but he didn't, which blows him out of the water as far as this debate is concerned IMOErrol's son said:
Who is the greatest F1 driver of all time?
- Thread starter Errol's son
- Start date
evildacat
bunchie‑santa.gif
kerb said:Definately..
Schumacher didnt have long term battles with drivers especially with his dominance at the begining of 2000. Great driver but he had a whole team set up for his style and a team that literally have no budget.
Senna was a proper racer. Remember Donnington 93? Or the footage of him burning around Monaco with a manual five speed gear box, taking some of the corners one handed. He was the last F1 hero.
Now these racers act like their automatic gearboxes. Press one button and you know whats gonna happen.
except raikonnen interviews with Martin Brundle.
Schumacher for me grown up watching him although i hated him when competing agianst damon hill i have grown to respect him and admire him. I have never seen anyone cut a field of drivers apart like schumacher, be it if he is last or making the other drivers look like pensioners when it rains.
I also believe that schumacher started with a manual gearbox as well, not 100%but he has been kicking about since91/92yes?
I read some comments from other drivers about his career, (annoyingly the name escapes me now) one driver said they saw alot worse in his time and compared to other hero's of the sport is a victim of tv coverage. I think it has a point as i can remember senna,prost and mansill being fairly dirty in my younger days as a viewer.
Again though i do find it hard to compare world champions as such massive leaps are constantly made in f1.
Ich bin ein Mod
does his make up in his room
evildacat said:
It does irk a little that the very thing people hate him for is something that they praise people like Senna for.
But then I am a biased Ferrari fan
g force
Affects Shatner's Basoon
But Senna was completely different. In Japan 88 he said "i'll take Prost out if it means me winning" and he did. He battled with a superb team mate and beat him in the 89 season.
MS has been given a series of also rans as team mates who do whatever he says. Austria a few years back destoryed my opinion of F1, somthing that's copme back to haunt this season with the FIA doing whatever Ferrari wanted. Legal suspension suddenlly becomes and "aero device"
His moves on Hill and Villeneuve were poor, taking DC out in Brazil was calculated. At least Senna told everyone he would do it. He didn't try covering it up.
F1 journos admire the guys skills, but it speaks volumes that many drivers dislike the guy. Brundle's comments during the GP of "there's lots of stuff people outside the paddock don't know about that has tainted him in the eyes of drivers" was pretty telling.
Schumacher may well statistically be the greatest, but with traction control and what not I don't think he's a patch on Clark, Moss, Fangio etc who risked their lives every tiem they stepped into an F1 car. I can't watch old GP's without flinching - esp Monaco before about 1985...nut cases the lot of them.
MS has been given a series of also rans as team mates who do whatever he says. Austria a few years back destoryed my opinion of F1, somthing that's copme back to haunt this season with the FIA doing whatever Ferrari wanted. Legal suspension suddenlly becomes and "aero device"
His moves on Hill and Villeneuve were poor, taking DC out in Brazil was calculated. At least Senna told everyone he would do it. He didn't try covering it up.
F1 journos admire the guys skills, but it speaks volumes that many drivers dislike the guy. Brundle's comments during the GP of "there's lots of stuff people outside the paddock don't know about that has tainted him in the eyes of drivers" was pretty telling.
Schumacher may well statistically be the greatest, but with traction control and what not I don't think he's a patch on Clark, Moss, Fangio etc who risked their lives every tiem they stepped into an F1 car. I can't watch old GP's without flinching - esp Monaco before about 1985...nut cases the lot of them.
evildacat
bunchie‑santa.gif
So senna's better becasue he definatly premediated taking out the other driver, where a schumacher might have done it in hte moment. Not suggesting that schmacher hadn't premediated but saying that its not a good thing senna said he would if he needed to.g force said:But Senna was completely different. In Japan 88 he said "i'll take Prost out if it means me winning" and he did. He battled with a superb team mate and beat him in the 89 season.
MS has been given a series of also rans as team mates who do whatever he says. Austria a few years back destoryed my opinion of F1, somthing that's copme back to haunt this season with the FIA doing whatever Ferrari wanted. Legal suspension suddenlly becomes and "aero device"
His moves on Hill and Villeneuve were poor, taking DC out in Brazil was calculated. At least Senna told everyone he would do it. He didn't try covering it up.
F1 journos admire the guys skills, but it speaks volumes that many drivers dislike the guy. Brundle's comments during the GP of "there's lots of stuff people outside the paddock don't know about that has tainted him in the eyes of drivers" was pretty telling.
Schumacher may well statistically be the greatest, but with traction control and what not I don't think he's a patch on Clark, Moss, Fangio etc who risked their lives every tiem they stepped into an F1 car. I can't watch old GP's without flinching - esp Monaco before about 1985...nut cases the lot of them.
I do agree with the comment made about micheal being a victim of tv coverage improving vastly for his age in the seat, people far to often romantise the past and the drivers as golden boys where the evidence of what they did to win couldn't be viewed even by the commenators. So i guess to make this a little more even if we hadn't seen what schumacher had done to win would he be top of the pile?
As far as schumacher having it easy, he til his last race pushed the hardest in the field, remember silverstone when he broke his legs always on the edge. safety measure have improved as has the tech, but lets face it the whole concept of f1 is to get the fastest car and the fastest driver. If the tech was available then it would have been used, schuamcer is also a converter from stcik to paddle so there is another change that i cannot think of anyone having to make and doing anywhere near as well.
And to even suggest that teams have not always employed team tactics to me is silly again the progress of tv has made the fans more aware it happens.
g force
Affects Shatner's Basoon
I don't think Senna is better, or indeed the best I said he was different. At least with Senna you knew what you'd get, i dislike this idea that Schumacher was somehow absolved of any blame because he's a genius and wouldn't comment on it.
But those flaws make him and Senna fascinating people.
I'd rate Moss, Fangio and Clark as better..but that's personal choice.
But those flaws make him and Senna fascinating people.
I'd rate Moss, Fangio and Clark as better..but that's personal choice.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Schumacher - there's lots of 'but the team is built around him', well Massa has done well for a Ferrari co-driver, and look what happened when Schumi went out with a broken leg and Irvine became lead Ferrari driver? He fucked it in the same car.
Toyota have as big a budget as Ferrari, and Maclaren and Benneton aren't exactly short of a bob or two either - but all these are excuses - when MS won the championship for Benneton he wasn't racing in the best car on the track.
And anyone who cracks on about TC and other driver aids should look at the salutory lesson of a one N.Lauda who said the same thing, took an Arrows out and spun it 5 times on his first lap...F1 cars today put the drivers through more extreme racing conditions than ever before so don't try and pull any crap about 'driver aids' making it easier.
For my money it's between Fangio, Moss, Senna and MS - they all took the sport to the next level in different ways, were all ruthlessly determined to win and as drivers were the automotive equivalent of a Pele or Tiger Woods.
Toyota have as big a budget as Ferrari, and Maclaren and Benneton aren't exactly short of a bob or two either - but all these are excuses - when MS won the championship for Benneton he wasn't racing in the best car on the track.
And anyone who cracks on about TC and other driver aids should look at the salutory lesson of a one N.Lauda who said the same thing, took an Arrows out and spun it 5 times on his first lap...F1 cars today put the drivers through more extreme racing conditions than ever before so don't try and pull any crap about 'driver aids' making it easier.
For my money it's between Fangio, Moss, Senna and MS - they all took the sport to the next level in different ways, were all ruthlessly determined to win and as drivers were the automotive equivalent of a Pele or Tiger Woods.
evildacat
bunchie‑santa.gif
g force said:
I think its a age thing as well, i grew up the mid end of senna's career with schumacher coming through. Not really seen a large body of moss fangio and clarks races but know the records.
I find this fog around schumacher media hyped again, maybe he didn't want to comment on what he did as he knew it was wrong, again senna and older drivers never really had to answer to thier actions. Like if schumacher had said he was going to take out said driver in the race, with todays safety laws action would have been taken straight away and action taken against schumacer.
The thing all these driver have in common is they would do anyting to win, it just happens that one of thier careers flusisehed as tv coverage and media bollocks also did.
Errol's son
Well-Known Member
No one thinks much of Tazio Nuvolari then?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Also, Senna died in a pretty awful way (front wheel spar through the head...ouch) at one of F1s 'home' circuits and had the benefit of being an untouchable national hero in Brazil and in the UK had Murray ready to breath flames over anyone who bad mouthed him.
If Schumi had crashed and died yesterday that whole stupidity at Monaco would be wiped out in a second.
If Schumi had crashed and died yesterday that whole stupidity at Monaco would be wiped out in a second.
Errol's son
Well-Known Member
kyser_soze said:
I think that is very true.
evildacat
bunchie‑santa.gif
I have never understood the arguement people put forward saying if all the cars were even with no techy stuff i bet schuamcher wouldn't win. Yes he would, he has driven the widest range of f1 cars as well as an abundance of others before hand. Ther eis also the evidence of the bennaton car, well below the main field performance and he made it look like the best car on the track.kyser_soze said:
Still say the best sight in F1 is schmaucher in the rain or starting at teh back of the grid, you will not see a more aggressive and progressive driver in that situation.
jugularvein
extra
where's nigel mansell?
evildacat said:
Yeah well he started in 91? so they might well have used manual gear boxes. Either way i think this footage of Senna was late eighties and it was awe inspiring to see him drive that way. The way the back end would kick out and he would we fighting the car with one hand and in the other hand he would be ready to change gear.
He was amazing.
As for Ferrari, they dont actually have a budget. They spend whatever they want to which is one of the reasons why they were the only team who didnt want spending cuts and technological curbs put on their spending power.
As there's no René Arnoux option I'm going with Senna.
René Arnoux - Canadian Grand Prix in the wet from last to second. Fucking cool.
René Arnoux - Canadian Grand Prix in the wet from last to second. Fucking cool.
Errol's son
Well-Known Member
I was thinking of putting him in instead of Hakkinen but many people I speak to say "Renee who"? 
The bottom option on the poll covers him though.
The bottom option on the poll covers him though.
Errol's son said:I was thinking of putting him in instead of Hakkinen but many people I speak to say "Renee who"?
The bottom option on the poll covers him though.
As a teenager I used to hitch around Europe following René. Had a big banner and everything. Remember one day he broke down after just one lap and parked his car right under my banner
My mate was a Mansell fan, think he went on to win in his Williams. I spent the entire two hours of the race wondering which bit of René's car I was going nick as a souvenier Was the days of no fences and regular track invasions.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
jugularvein said:
In a tax haven, probably moaning about the team not being behind him.
I did see a small article recently that both his sons are in karting despite his best efforts to dissuade them from taking up motor racing.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
A hugely underrated driver by some people. Not the best ever, but I'd certainly have him in my top 10.jugularvein said:
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
beesonthewhatnow said:
I remember when he crashed in adelaide(?) that time and travelled down the straight at nearly 200mph on 2/3 wheels. He lsot the title, but Murray Walker said that the fact that he was still alive proved that he was the best driver that day!
Apparently, every Ferrari sold in the UK is imported through a Nigel Mansell company. He still gets his commission.
He must be stinking
He must be stinking
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
The time he overtook Gehard Berger round the outside of the (flat out, 150mph) last corner in the 1990 Mexico GP is the thing that sticks in my mind. The best overtaking move I've ever seen, and quite possibly the best pass in the history of F1...1927 said:
edit - Don't believe me? Watch
g force
Affects Shatner's Basoon
Il Lione - the fact the Tifosi adore Nigel tells you he was a great driver. He won the driver's title when Senna and Prost were driving, he won the CART championship a year later - the first person to ever do it in their rookie season.
31 F1 victories - 4th highest total in F1 history. 5 straight victories in 92 and 9 wins in total.
Nigel was a genius behind the wheel - aggressive, passionate. Were it not for that tyre incident, and the accident in Suzuka qualification he would have been a 3 time world champion.
The Berger pass is still bettered only by Alonso's at Suzuka a year ago. And of course there was that drive in Hungary in that dog of a Ferrari, making the brilliant move on Senna as he went to lap Stefan Johannsen's Onyx
I'd have Nige in the Top 10 for sure - he's better than most of the current crop bar Alonso and Schumacher.
31 F1 victories - 4th highest total in F1 history. 5 straight victories in 92 and 9 wins in total.
Nigel was a genius behind the wheel - aggressive, passionate. Were it not for that tyre incident, and the accident in Suzuka qualification he would have been a 3 time world champion.
The Berger pass is still
bettered only by Alonso's at Suzuka a year ago. And of course there was that drive in Hungary in that dog of a Ferrari, making the brilliant move on Senna as he went to lap Stefan Johannsen's Onyx I'd have Nige in the Top 10 for sure - he's better than most of the current crop bar Alonso and Schumacher.
