Who is at "fault" for the gentrification of Brixton?

[editor]

Have you seen the film Notting Hill? How many black people are in it?

I can tell you.

One

Oh, good grief, man, that's really desperate stuff and waaaaay off topic.

If you start confusing schmaltzy, middle class, made-for-the-US-market film fantasies with reality, you're really in trouble.

Do you think that Glasgow/Edinburgh is almost entirely populated with junkies and violent nutters because that's how it was portrayed in Trainspotting?

 

[Domski]

Domski, I wouldn't want to be the bureacrat whose task it is to judge whether people's poverty is their 'deliberate fault'...

I agree - would be nigh on impossible... but people usually know whether or not they have made the best of their lot in life or whether they've fucked up. I guess that's what I mean.

 

[Mr BC]

Applying this to Brixton, people who have lived in the area for years who find themselves priced out of the market... HOW are they being priced out of the market? If they are being booted out of their council houses to flog to developers THAT IS WRONG! That's the only way I can fathom that people are truly being priced out as they cannot then afford the market rates on other properties if they can't find another council house...

I'd like to know what other ways the gentrification of Brixton is 'pricing' people out of the market other than the tedious ones about the price of beer in bars

The problem is that people have children. Those children grow up and, not unnaturally, want to continue living near their parents. They can't afford to buy a home, because prices have rocketed. They can't afford a privately rented property, for the same reason. They can't get a council property because there aren't enough to go around. Consequently, they have to move away. This, manifestly, undermines communities and, equally manifestly, is a consequence of 'gentrification'.

 

[editor]

Are you arguing that non-white people can't be racist?

No. But I'm telling you that your 'those who gentrify Brixton are racists' argument is seriously flawed.

It would be nice if you didn't try and twist my words too. I made no reference to whether black people could be racist or not (which of course they can be, just like anyone else)

 

[Anna Key]

Oh, good grief, man, that's really desperate stuff and waaaaay off topic.

Why?

If you start confusing schmaltzy, middle class, made-for-the-US-market film fantasies with reality, you're really in trouble.

I agree. Are you confusing them?

Do you think that Glasgow/Edinburgh is almost entirely populated with junkies and violent nutters because that's how it was portrayed in Trainspotting?

Uhhh... no. Do you?

Sorry Mike. I don't understand what you're talking about. Please explain.

 

[Domski]

The problem is that people have children. Those children grow up and, not unnaturally, want to continue living near their parents. They can't afford to buy a home, because prices have rocketed. They can't afford a privately rented property, for the same reason. They can't get a council property because there aren't enough to go around. Consequently, they have to move away. This, manifestly, undermines communities and, equally manifestly, is a consequence of 'gentrification'.

That's a very good point Mr BC I'd completely missed that - That's a real difficulty and something that I can see 'gentrification' fucks right up.

 

[Anna Key]

No. But I'm telling you that your 'those who gentrify Brixton are racists' argument is seriously flawed.

Please give reasons. What bit of my argument don't you agree with?

It would be nice if you didn't try and twist my words too.

I'll try not to. And I'm sure you'll do the same.

 

[tom796]

admittedly, i'm not the recipient of this one, but...

anna key, do you realise how potentially patronising your post technique could be? i mean, the way you quote large chunks of people's arguments back at them and respond with terse, one-word answers.

 

[fanta]

Sorry Mike. I don't understand what you're talking about. Please explain.

That is bollocks old boy. I know you understand perfectly well!

 

[Mr BC]

admittedly, i'm not the recipient of this one, but...

anna key, do you realise how potentially patronising your post technique could be? i mean, the way you quote large chunks of people's arguments back at them and respond with terse, one-word answers.

Oh no, it's 'egg shell personalities' and 'forensic posting techniques' all over again ...

 

[Anna Key]

admittedly, i'm not the recipient of this one, but...

anna key, do you realise how potentially patronising your post technique could be? i mean, the way you quote large chunks of people's arguments back at them and respond with terse, one-word answers.

If I agree with someone I tell them. If I disagree I tell them. How is that patronising?

 

[Anna Key]

That is bollocks old boy. I know you understand perfectly well!

Honest. I don't.

Ed didn't like me mentioning the film 'Notting Hill.' I don't know why he feels like that.

He could be absolutely right. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the film. But I won't know until he explains.

I'm not a mind-reader and don't see why I should re-read my post mentioning 'Notting Hill' and then wrack my brains as to why Ed didn't like it.

Why should I? Let Ed explain if he wants to.

 

[hiccup]

Surely what Mike was saying, quite clearly I thought, was that you shouldn't use an artificial representation of Notting Hill to illustrate a point about the reality of the place.

 

[Anna Key]

Surely what Mike was saying, quite clearly I thought, was that you shouldn't use an artificial representation of Notting Hill to illustrate a point about the reality of the place.

Is that what you meant Mike?

<Waits with baited breath>

 

[editor]

Sorry Mike. I don't understand what you're talking about. Please explain.

Please don't piss around and try to patronise me.

I can't be arsed to play your games although I will comment that your tactics here perfectly sum up why some people are put off posting here.

You're clearly far more interested in scoring points than actually staying on topic and debating the issues.

Still, if you think that manufacturing ridiculous suggestions that I might think 'black people can't be racist', serving up weird nonsense about an irrelevant shite film and announcing that those "who gentrify Brixton are racists" passes for meaningful debate, I'll leave you to it.

 

[editor]

Is that what you meant Mike?

<Waits with baited breath>

Funny how everyone else seems to have perfectly understood my point, isn't it?

(deep sigh)

 

[pooka]

The problem is that people have children. Those children grow up and, not unnaturally, want to continue living near their parents.

This one keeps coming up here on U75. Oddly so, since the overwhelming majority of U75 Brixton posters I've met are college educated, middle class and have moved here from elsewhere. They left home at 18, chose to study miles from home and locate a good distance from their childhood home. Nothing wrong with that. But the presumption seems to be that kids growing in Brixton will inevitably want to live round the corner from their folks, in some kind of Eastenders idyll. A tad patronising, I'd say.

They can't afford to buy a home, because prices have rocketed. They can't afford a privately rented property, for the same reason. They can't get a council property because there aren't enough to go around. Consequently, they have to move away. This, manifestly, undermines communities and, equally manifestly, is a consequence of 'gentrification'

The implication here is that 'incomers' occupying social housing, and displacing local kids, are gentrifiers too If they're white, are they racists too(in the geographic heart of Brixton, say)?

 

[hendo]

If I agree with someone I tell them. If I disagree I tell them. How is that patronising?

I don't know about patronising, but it makes some of your posts read like that Private Eye spoof "Me and My Spoon."

ie Q: Have you ever had any interesting experiences with your spoon?
A: No.

 

[Anna Key]

Imagine my surprise when I found out that I was a 'racist gentrifier pawn of capitalism driving out the oppressed poor'

But are you a 'racist gentrifier pawn of capitalism driving out the oppressed poor'?

Did you take over former social housing stock?

If you've simply bought a place which has always been private sector I see nothing wrong with that at all. What on earth is there to feel guilty about?

 

[fanta]

What on earth is there to feel guilty about?

Being English, white and having a penis?

(for which I apologise!)

 

[Ms T]

But are you a 'racist gentrifier pawn of capitalism driving out the oppressed poor'?

Did you take over former social housing stock?

If you've simply bought a place which has always been private sector I see nothing wrong with that at all. What on earth is there to feel guilty about?

Out of interest, how long does something have to have been in private hands before you can have a clear conscience? Our house was built in 1870 something and I can't vouch for all of that.

As I said before, you did have the glimmerings of a point with your racist analogy, but now you seem to have reduced it to the point of absurdity. No offence, like.

 

[Anna Key]

I

Oh do get on with it.

don't know about patronising,

Yes?

but

There's always a 'but.'

it makes

Yes?

some of your posts read like that Private Eye spoof "Me and My Spoon."

I don't know whether to be insulted or flattered.

 

[Ms T]

Being English, white and having a penis?

(for which I apologise!)

Quite right too! Is AK going to apologise as well?

 

[Anna Key]

Out of interest, how long does something have to have been in private hands before you can have a clear conscience? Our house was built in 1870 something and I can't vouch for all of that.

Given the power of middle-class guilt, I'd say about 500 years. Better make that 1,000.

No offence, like.

None taken Ms Spoon.

 

[Anna Key]

Is AK going to apologise as well?

Never apologise, never explain!

Full steam ahead and damn the torpedoes!

 

[Ms T]

This one keeps coming up here on U75. Oddly so, since the overwhelming majority of U75 Brixton posters I've met are college educated, middle class and have moved here from elsewhere. They left home at 18, chose to study miles from home and locate a good distance from their childhood home. Nothing wrong with that. But the presumption seems to be that kids growing in Brixton will inevitably want to live round the corner from their folks, in some kind of Eastenders idyll. A tad patronising, I'd say.



The implication here is that 'incomers' occupying social housing, and displacing local kids, are gentrifiers too If they're white, are they racists too(in the geographic heart of Brixton, say)?

Well I moved here (in part) because I wanted to get away from my parents, but then they do live in Lincolnshire! My neighbour's children, on the other hand, are in their twenties, at least one of them is college educated, and they can't afford to move away from home. But this is happening all over the country -- the same debates go on in my parents' village, which is full of "townies" who've decided to retire to the country. It's even cropped up on the Archers - but then me and Mrs M are probably the only people who listen to it!

 

[ViolentPanda]

This one keeps coming up here on U75. Oddly so, since the overwhelming majority of U75 Brixton posters I've met are college educated, middle class and have moved here from elsewhere. They left home at 18, chose to study miles from home and locate a good distance from their childhood home. Nothing wrong with that. But the presumption seems to be that kids growing in Brixton will inevitably want to live round the corner from their folks, in some kind of Eastenders idyll. A tad patronising, I'd say.

What's wrong with wanting to live near to your family? Why would you want to remove yourself from an important resource network?
BTW, you also appear to be basing your answer on Urbanites you've met. Some of us may vary from that supposed norm, old son.

The implication here is that 'incomers' occupying social housing, and displacing local kids, are gentrifiers too If they're white, are they racists too(in the geographic heart of Brixton, say)?

Surely you're missing the point here. It's not that "incomers" are moving into social housing, it's that IF somebody purchases their social housing, then invariably the purchaser IS NOT a w/c local,
This reduces the social housing stock, which usually leads to non-availability (except for hardcore emergency cases) of social housing for members of the w/c community who have deep roots here.
I'll even give you an example of the effect thiat RTB and gentrification has had:
My neighbours have a small child and is expecting another. She has arthritis in most of her limb joints and can't work, he works 60+ hours a week for minimum wage. They live in a one bedroom council flat and have been told they have 2 options;
a) hope they have a child of the opposite sex to their existing one, so that when the female reaches 7 the council will have to statutorilly rehouse them.
b) Move north where her arthritis will be made worse and he won't be able to find work.

Gentrification isn't just about obvious effects, it's about all the hidden ones that affect only the "underclass" as well.

 

[Mr BC]

This one keeps coming up here on U75. Oddly so, since the overwhelming majority of U75 Brixton posters I've met are college educated, middle class and have moved here from elsewhere. They left home at 18, chose to study miles from home and locate a good distance from their childhood home. Nothing wrong with that. But the presumption seems to be that kids growing in Brixton will inevitably want to live round the corner from their folks, in some kind of Eastenders idyll. A tad patronising, I'd say.



The implication here is that 'incomers' occupying social housing, and displacing local kids, are gentrifiers too If they're white, are they racists too(in the geographic heart of Brixton, say)?

Might it perhaps be Pooka, that some children move away in manner of, "college educated middle class" whilst some decide to stay at home in manner of "Eastenders" idyll. Patronising? I don't think so, just a statement of the obvious.

As to your second point, you draw the wrong implications. Firstly, I don't think that the lack of social housing is mainly due to 'incomers'. I think there is simply a shortage, as the children of tenants take up tenancies etc. Secondly, the racism point is Anna Key's not mine. I have maintained a Trappist-like silence on that subject.

 

[Domski]

But are you a 'racist gentrifier pawn of capitalism driving out the oppressed poor'?

Did you take over former social housing stock?

If you've simply bought a place which has always been private sector I see nothing wrong with that at all. What on earth is there to feel guilty about?

No - I didn't...

And there I was thinking gentrification was about all those other people moving to Brixton, you know 'the bland conservative type'

What a relief.

 

[Anna Key]

the racism point is Anna Key's not mine. I have maintained a Trappist-like silence on that subject.

Don't think I hadn't noticed.