Who has seen real poverty?

[frogwoman]

i know people who have seen real poverty but quite literally dont give a shit ...

 

[derf]

Derf,
read this thread with some interest..
I've seen, experienced etc..

Other than trying to wind up people with your pontificating what is your actual point..
I would rather hear solutions than what i saw on me holidays guff.. I think they called it 'show and tell' at school for those who had the privilege of education.. I think most here may have left school by now..
So maybe we could have mature discussion sometime instead of this endless childish prattle..
I personally dont have the answers but i have plenty of questions.. and will engage with and work with anyone who is genuinely willing to erradicate international poverty..

I think another poster summed this thread up accurately


suppose i really should learn to use the ignore function soon

No wind up intended. Some posters wind themselves up but that's their problem.
My intention was two fold. The prime was to see how many of the people who bleat on about left wing ideals really know what poverty is and the second to highlight the reality for many in places like this.
i was please to see positive remarks from so many posters with their experiences.

I believe there is a solution to poverty in the free countries.
(countries with difficult governments are not so easy)
That would involve the US stopping bombing the shit out of some places, giving Israel a serious telling about how to behave and using the money saved to help people out in a practical way.
That's not just pumping a barrow load of cash into the place but targeted projects and micro loans allowing people to get going and maintain a reasonable lifestyle.
To rebuild a house here with running water from a local, free supply would cost a couple of hundred quid per unit if you did it on a large scale.
Adding a local water supply by digging wells, not much more.

To give an example of how micro loans could help.
A bloke who lives a few doors away has no work. He does a bit here and there that brings home about Rp200,000 a month. He wants to start a business washing motorbikes. It's viable but would cost about GBP 100 to set up. He has nothing like the cash and can't borrow it from the banks as he has nothing to secure the loan against.
A micro loan at minimal interest would help him out no end and allow him to earn around a million a month. That would easily be enough to keep him going.

Just as an aside I believe that US security would benefit from a major policy change. If you bomb someone you create hate, if you help someone, you create friends.
No bugger wants to kill a mate.

 

[harpo]

No wind up intended. Some posters wind themselves up but that's their problem.
My intention was two fold. The prime was to see how many of the people who bleat on about left wing ideals really know what poverty is and the second to highlight the reality for many in places like this.
i was please to see positive remarks from so many posters with their experiences.

I believe there is a solution to poverty in the free countries.
(countries with difficult governments are not so easy)
That would involve the US stopping bombing the shit out of some places, giving Israel a serious telling about how to behave and using the money saved to help people out in a practical way.
That's not just pumping a barrow load of cash into the place but targeted projects and micro loans allowing people to get going and maintain a reasonable lifestyle.
To rebuild a house here with running water from a local, free supply would cost a couple of hundred quid per unit if you did it on a large scale.
Adding a local water supply by digging wells, not much more.

To give an example of how micro loans could help.
A bloke who lives a few doors away has no work. He does a bit here and there that brings home about Rp200,000 a month. He wants to start a business washing motorbikes. It's viable but would cost about GBP 100 to set up. He has nothing like the cash and can't borrow it from the banks as he has nothing to secure the loan against.
A micro loan at minimal interest would help him out no end and allow him to earn around a million a month. That would easily be enough to keep him going.

Just as an aside I believe that US security would benefit from a major policy change. If you bomb someone you create hate, if you help someone, you create friends.
No bugger wants to kill a mate.

No, here's a better idea. Stop the protectionism of the CAP and allow agrarian African economies to trade on the European markets. It's the start they need.

 

[fela fan]

'White Man Sees Asian Poverty and Thinks He Understands'

You can pontificate all you want about having seen desperate poverty, but you didn't grow up in it and you've always got the option of flying home, so stop pretending like living in proximity to very poor people gives you some special insight when all you're really doing is manipulating their poverty to get an easy life.

No, i think this is simply a post that illustrates the thinking of a man called yossarian. You are simply supplying your thinking and judgments and making the mistake of branding someone with those judgments. Unfair. I can't see him claiming 'special insight'. And i can't see how you can come to the conclusion that he is manipulating anybody. Don't confuse what is with what you think it is.

A very british thing to do mate, and one perhaps you might not have succumbed to.

 

[fela fan]

Those countries are full of men like that. Shagging their way round, mediocrities where they came from, 'big shots' there. Look at my money! Look how I stay here! Look how god damn GOOD I am to shag your daughter and give you money. Gambia is the same.

'These countries' may be full of men like that, or not. But what's even more certain is that there are always those like yourself ready to sit on the sidelines sneering away at others, passing judgments down on them, and in general exhibiting a nastiness that the world is better off without.

 

[fela fan]

I didn't grow up in that sort of poverty but if you care to read the thread you may notive I mentioned growing up in what would be considered very poor conditions in the UK. I always thought that was a rough way to live but its sod all compared to what I see here every day.
I don't have the option of flying home. I live here and my whole life is here including my wife and 1 year old.
I don't live in proximity to poor people, I live with them. We are all part of the same village and there is a bond that has developed. I am part of the village in every sense.
Living in a village like this does give you an insight to the way of life. You would have to be blind for it not to.
I do not manipulate their poverty in any way. It wasn't my choice to move here but my wife's. She bought the house while I was still in the UK. The fact that I agreed and feel it was a good move is a bonus but I was going to live in one of the larger cities.
As for the way I live. I do have a nice house and enjoy a good lifestyle but that only has a positive effect on the village. I spend more than most here and most is spent in the village so the businesses have gained a boost from my being here.
So being here and living with the people does give you an insight things as long as you have the right attitude and want to be part of the place you live in.

Now i see your reply to yossarian, and nice one too mate. It's still amazing to me how a) folk back home are so quick to make judgments, and b) how they are often so wrong.

I always like the bit where they just say you can fly home any time. I personally can't, and for the same reasons as you. Not that i want to mind. But it never seems to occur to these sneerers on the sidelines that we may travel to another country, but then travellers get married, have kids, get attached to a simple way of life, grow bonds with locals, and in general get a more satisfying life where they have moved to. They learn the language, get on with the locals, and integrate. While poverty in some places is gutwrenching, poverty of mind is a worse thing because it's by choice.

And i agree with you over the health. The villages i've been to and stayed at in northern thailand have pretty poor people, but always with a smile on the face. Until a health problem kicks in. Then they become helpless.

 

[fela fan]

Fair play, I don't know you.

Well you jumped in mighty fucking quick and judged him.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I spent a couple of years working in rural development in one of the poorest parts of China and then later visited a lot of other parts of the poor west of the country writing about related issues. I'd often stay with families in the villages for days at a time when working on projects with them and hear what they had to say about their lives, plus we did a lot of empirical study too. I've conducted similar work among the new working class in the industrial south too.
These experiences didn't change my understanding of relative poverty and precariousness under capitalism in the West. Having seen some of the failures of the Chinese state, and talked with people who suffered directly as a result of various historical campaigns, I'm also a more convinced communist than ever.

I actually think that even the poor in China are quite well off in relative developing world terms.

My inlaws, for instance, in rural hubei, live in a rather rundown house (you have to shower outside) but they have running water, a tv, plenty to eat, and so on - and soon they're moving into a really nice flat which cost them about 7000 pounds.

I compare how they live, to the poor I saw in India, living in these horrible shanty towns etc, and I think "Isn't democracy wonderful..."

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

This thread helps illustrate the concept/reality that there is third world in first world countries, and first world in third world countries.

Poverty is hard to pin down into a one-fits-all definition. I still think living in poverty in the country i live in - thailand - is probably better than living in poverty in britain - the country i come from. Mainly because it's hot here, so no heating problems to encounter, and because food is so plentiful here. And, due to a largely absent welfare benefits system, neighbours become the alternative to the state. Communities and empathetic individuals help take care of those less fortunate. Beggars are seen in a sympathetic light, and i don't think that's the case in britain.

My wife says the same. She says that in the UK, people don't really talk to each other, so it's quite a lonely life, compared with where her parents live in 'poor' rural china, where people are always wandering in and out of each others houses and stuff.

I think it's a pretty fair point.

 

[N_igma]

First point: Poverty is relative.

Second point: Yes I've seen "real" poverty. What's your point caller?

 

[JimW]

I actually think that even the poor in China are quite well off in relative developing world terms.

My inlaws, for instance, in rural hubei, live in a rather rundown house (you have to shower outside) but they have running water, a tv, plenty to eat, and so on - and soon they're moving into a really nice flat which cost them about 7000 pounds.

I compare how they live, to the poor I saw in India, living in these horrible shanty towns etc, and I think "Isn't democracy wonderful..."

They are in a number of ways - absence of war being one of the most important - but then there's poor and poorest. These were areas still officially "poverty counties" by the very parsimonious standards of the Chinese official poverty line and there were still difficulties with basic subsistence, a resurgence of basic health problems incl. previously eradicated endemic diseases after the collapse of the rural health system, no electricity, water etc. Where I worked was also an ethnic minority area - language problems made looking for off-farm work doubly difficult combined with the remoteness. Also on the route for drug smuggling out of Burma and heroin addiction, HIV etc were rife. Grim enough, any way.
One of the defences of the household registration system has been its prevention of the growth of slums around China's cities. Plus side is very few landless, downside (one aspect - bit of big topic) has been creation of two types of citizenship that make life harder for rural migrants when they do come to the cities - no way to get kids in school etc

 

[derf]

No, here's a better idea. Stop the protectionism of the CAP and allow agrarian African economies to trade on the European markets. It's the start they need.

How about both?

 

[derf]

My wife says the same. She says that in the UK, people don't really talk to each other, so it's quite a lonely life, compared with where her parents live in 'poor' rural china, where people are always wandering in and out of each others houses and stuff.

I think it's a pretty fair point.

I've never had the chance to see China much as I would love to. I've only seen a little of Thailand but most were the tourist bits and so not a fair idea of what the place is really like.

However if China is as you describe it's about the same as here. Its open house. Anyone is welcome anywhere in the village. We often get neighbours wandering in. The elderly and infirm don't loose contact with the village as someone always makes sure they aren't alone for long..
If I'm driving into town and see someone on foot I give them a lift as they do for me if I'm walking.
Its almost impossible to walk to the shop without two or three people trying to drag you in for a cup of tea. It's a great way to live.

The other thing is that no matter what life tosses their way they always take it on the chin and carry on. you just can't help but respect the attitude.

 

[tarannau]

Why do people think the above is unique to 'poor' countries?

Having an open house, with relatives and neighbours popping in unannounced (usually around dinner time) was a huge part of my childhood in London. We supported an extended family, including elderly 'aunties' (who of course were not related) and the neighbours provided the local creche.

The rate of migration, property values and the sheer size of London may mitigate against long-term settled communities, but people don't move to Britain and suddenly lose the habits of a lifetime and their culture.

 

[DotCommunist]

The other thing is that no matter what life tosses their way they always take it on the chin and carry on. you just can't help but respect the attitude.

all british people commit suicide the instance life tosses them something difficult.

 

[machine cat]

Although poverty was rife on every street corner where I lived in China, living standards were a hell of a lot better than the more rural parts of the country. Those makeshift redbricked villages in the Dongbei countryside really are truely depressing places compared to the wealth of the cities.

 

[derf]

all british people commit suicide the instance life tosses them something difficult.

That's the sort of smug comment I was talking about.
Maybe they don't kill themselves but too many moan on about going on strike for more cash or how the dole is not enough to live on.

Nothing out here to turn to if you have real problems and sod all by way of a pension for most so if you don't sort out for your retirement while you are working, that's you knackered.

Even with the worst that life throws at them, they get on with it, always try to smile and do what they can. You have to see it to understand it.

Even when hari raya (eid) comes around and you have to put food out for your visitors, they do the best they can. It's usually a few biscuits and the odd bits and bobs but they always offer the visitor something.

I repeat. I have a great respect for the people I have chosen to live alongside.

 

[DotCommunist]

Indonesia has a massive middle class and a minority of subsistence farmers does it?

or is the reverse in fact true? Fuck off with your facile and worthless comparisons and get back to respecting that culture by employing children. Respect it in the face.

 

[Brainaddict]

'White Man Sees Asian Poverty and Thinks He Understands'

You can pontificate all you want about having seen desperate poverty, but you didn't grow up in it and you've always got the option of flying home, so stop pretending like living in proximity to very poor people gives you some special insight when all you're really doing is manipulating their poverty to get an easy life.

*applauds*

 

[Brainaddict]

I believe there is a solution to poverty in the free countries.
(countries with difficult governments are not so easy)
That would involve the US stopping bombing the shit out of some places, giving Israel a serious telling about how to behave and using the money saved to help people out in a practical way.
That's not just pumping a barrow load of cash into the place but targeted projects and micro loans allowing people to get going and maintain a reasonable lifestyle.
To rebuild a house here with running water from a local, free supply would cost a couple of hundred quid per unit if you did it on a large scale.
Adding a local water supply by digging wells, not much more.

To give an example of how micro loans could help.
A bloke who lives a few doors away has no work. He does a bit here and there that brings home about Rp200,000 a month. He wants to start a business washing motorbikes. It's viable but would cost about GBP 100 to set up. He has nothing like the cash and can't borrow it from the banks as he has nothing to secure the loan against.
A micro loan at minimal interest would help him out no end and allow him to earn around a million a month. That would easily be enough to keep him going.

Nothing wrong with those ideas, but it's not easy. Indonesia is home to one of the World Bank's only half-decent aid programs - the Kecamatan Development Programme which gives money for community-chosen projects with communal benefit. I'm sure it also has micro-credit banks which provide money for private projects. But you always hit the same walls - corruption, lack of education, lack of access to justice, poor health services (an illness can wipe out twenty years of hard-earned money) and so there aren't any easy routes. It's hard, slow work and sometimes it's difficult to know where to start. Though if you have a £100 to spare then it sounds like you've found a place to start

 

[derf]

Nothing wrong with those ideas, but it's not easy. Indonesia is home to one of the World Bank's only half-decent aid programs - the Kecamatan Development Programme which gives money for community-chosen projects with communal benefit. I'm sure it also has micro-credit banks which provide money for private projects. But you always hit the same walls - corruption, lack of education, lack of access to justice, poor health services (an illness can wipe out twenty years of hard-earned money) and so there aren't any easy routes. It's hard, slow work and sometimes it's difficult to know where to start. Though if you have a £100 to spare then it sounds like you've found a place to start

Corruption is a problem here and it will hold back development.
Education is a real problem as it has to be paid for after 13 so many of the poorest leave school regardless of the law.
Health services are a real problem. Most just can't afford anything major or even the minor. The lass next door gave herself a very nasty cut with a very sharp axe two weeks ago. All she did was wrap it in a not very clean cloth and that was that until I saw it. I took the lass to the hospital, sorted out the stitches, jabs and antibiotics. The cost was Rp75,000 or just over a week and a couple of day's pay for her. They brought me some rather nice home made crackers round by way of a thank you.

I have to be a little careful with the cash as, while I'm well off by local standards, I'm not rich.
I have a small salary from investments in the UK and an income from my wife's shop. My next is a small internet cafe I'm tying to get going.
That and some minor work I do out here doing voice overs.
It allows me to live OK but not to splash cash around. When a major investment comes in about 10 years time I'm laughing but must take care until then.
Sadly I don't have enough to risk on micro loans much as I would like to for the people I know here. Perhaps later if the businesses do well.

 

[Kanda]

Spent a fair amount of time in Sierra Leone, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Kenya etc etc so yeah, seen a fair bit.

 

[kropotkin]

No, i think this is simply a post that illustrates the thinking of a man called yossarian. You are simply supplying your thinking and judgments and making the mistake of branding someone with those judgments. Unfair. I can't see him claiming 'special insight'. And i can't see how you can come to the conclusion that he is manipulating anybody. Don't confuse what is with what you think it is.

A very british thing to do mate, and one perhaps you might not have succumbed to.

such a monumental arse.

 

[Barking_Mad]

i took a trip in Siem Reap (Cambodia) to see people living next to a rubbish tip. They 'recycled rubbish' for about $1 a day. When the rubbish truck arrived they'd chase after it to get the 'best bits'.

http://www.pbase.com/barking_mad/image/71728119

They were lovely people living in appauling circumstances, the children had all sorts of breathing problems. Needless to say, the smell and the flies were horrendous.

 

[felixthecat]

Sounds OK but....

Would you?

And most don't have much or any land except for the 'house'.

Have you travelled much derf? That house isn't particularly bad - it looks like a typical caribbean subsistance farmer's house - kinda like the one my other half was brought up in.

The worst poverty I've ever seen was in Haiti, outside Port-au-Prince. Miles and miles of colourless cardboard city, no sanitation whatsoever, big bellied naked children, no greenery and a sense of hopelessness.

 

[Dimitris]

These are just some photos I could fill this thread with similar... Where they are? GREECE. Yeap, you can see people living in such conditions in a country member of the EU and the Monetary Union ...

The closest to me are just 1 km down the road ...

 

[harpo]

'These countries' may be full of men like that, or not. But what's even more certain is that there are always those like yourself ready to sit on the sidelines sneering away at others, passing judgments down on them, and in general exhibiting a nastiness that the world is better off without.

Oh the irony

 

[phildwyer]

There are millions of people who live right next door to other people in awful poverty and just think "yeah, but fuck 'em".

When I was in the US one of the things that got to me was seeing skyscrapers with corporate HQs of vast multinationals literally across the road from row houses, half of them burnt out and the other half falling apart. Guess what, people in the latter couldn't afford to go to the doctor's either.

Aye. I've been to the slums of Port-au-Prince, Phnom Penh, Accra and Calcutta, but the worst poverty I've ever seen was in Philadelphia.

 

[harpo]

Well you jumped in mighty fucking quick and judged him.

Don't think I even made a direct reference. The assumption was all yours. Tut tut, naughty.

 

[fela fan]

Oh the irony

How so harpo?