Who has seen real poverty?

[fela fan]

This thread helps illustrate the concept/reality that there is third world in first world countries, and first world in third world countries.

Poverty is hard to pin down into a one-fits-all definition. I still think living in poverty in the country i live in - thailand - is probably better than living in poverty in britain - the country i come from. Mainly because it's hot here, so no heating problems to encounter, and because food is so plentiful here. And, due to a largely absent welfare benefits system, neighbours become the alternative to the state. Communities and empathetic individuals help take care of those less fortunate. Beggars are seen in a sympathetic light, and i don't think that's the case in britain.

 

[Badger Kitten]

I just wondered how many on the forum have actually seen this sort of thing with their own eyes and so are able to understand it.

Do you have to 'see' 'real' poverty with your very own eyes up close and heartbreaking before you are fully able to feel compassion and empathy? Or want to do anything about it?

Patronising guff.

Thank God for the smiley

 

[Voley]

despite the depressing amount of gap year students and backpackers who seem to believe themselves enlightened as to the ways of the world after strolling through a piss poor village before flying back home,

You've got a good point there, obviously, but I still think doing the gap year thing is a good thing for a lot of people. I certainly appreciate the benefits of living in the West more these days. Most people bring something positive back from their travels - a change in attitude, a broader worldview.

Unfortunately the boring ones tend to shout the loudest.

 

[YouSir]

You've got a good point there, obviously, but I still think doing the gap year thing is a good thing for a lot of people. I certainly appreciate the benefits of living in the West more these days. Most people bring something positive back from their travels - a change in attitude, a broader worldview.

Unfortunately the boring ones tend to shout the loudest.

Wouldn't disagree at all, didn't do a gap year but I did travel in that sort of way and with people who were on gap years, I got a lot out of it. But those boring ones do shout the loudest and they tend to stamp a lot of experiences with the brand of their ego, which always pissed me off a lot, makes some people assume that they need to react in exactly the same way as others to what they see and do, if that makes sense.

 

[pinkmonkey]

I'm not talking about being a bit skint and not being able to go down the pub until payday but real poverty.
As many will know i live in a small village in central Java, Indonesia. Here there are many families that live on a lot less than $2 a day. We are talking simple, and often half wrecked, wooden shacks with dirt floors and not much inside.
No running water, no electricity and often, no food.

I just wondered how many on the forum have actually seen this sort of thing with their own eyes and so are able to understand it.

In Surabaya, funnily enough, 15 years ago, I went to a market where the homeless people were naked.

 

[Voley]

Makes perfect sense, YouSir, yes.

 

[TomPaine]

My cousins missus grew up in South America in a slum town. Had her bro killed by a stray bullet when a shoot out between the drug gangs and cops started.

 

[trashpony]

Like a lot of middle class people, I've travelled around the third world, yes. But as Jarvis Cocker says, it's not quite the same when you know you can go home whenever the fuck you feel like it is it?

 

[derf]

Sounds lovely...your own house, no rent or mortgage, a plot of land to grow food.

Sounds OK but....

Would you?

And most don't have much or any land except for the 'house'.

 

[derf]

In Surabaya, funnily enough, 15 years ago, I went to a market where the homeless people were naked.

I've never been there. The only naked person I've seen here was a bloke with mental problems who lived in the jungle just up the road. People used to take food for him every day.
Quite nice of them I thought.

 

[Gingerman]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/feb/15/duke-westminster-property
I now know the true meaning of real poverty ;-)

 

[pinkmonkey]

There are people living near me (in London) who have alot less than that house.

 

[harpo]

Yeah. I lived in the Gambia, west Africa. One of the worst indicators of poverty for me was people dying too young without even being able to get a diagnosis, never mind treatment. It's quite shit to hear someone of 25 who doesn't know why they're dying.

 

[Yossarian]

I'm not talking about being a bit skint and not being able to go down the pub until payday but real poverty.
As many will know i live in a small village in central Java, Indonesia. Here there are many families that live on a lot less than $2 a day. We are talking simple, and often half wrecked, wooden shacks with dirt floors and not much inside.
No running water, no electricity and often, no food.

I just wondered how many on the forum have actually seen this sort of thing with their own eyes and so are able to understand it.

'White Man Sees Asian Poverty and Thinks He Understands'

You can pontificate all you want about having seen desperate poverty, but you didn't grow up in it and you've always got the option of flying home, so stop pretending like living in proximity to very poor people gives you some special insight when all you're really doing is manipulating their poverty to get an easy life.

 

[derf]

This thread helps illustrate the concept/reality that there is third world in first world countries, and first world in third world countries.

Poverty is hard to pin down into a one-fits-all definition. I still think living in poverty in the country i live in - thailand - is probably better than living in poverty in britain - the country i come from. Mainly because it's hot here, so no heating problems to encounter, and because food is so plentiful here. And, due to a largely absent welfare benefits system, neighbours become the alternative to the state. Communities and empathetic individuals help take care of those less fortunate. Beggars are seen in a sympathetic light, and i don't think that's the case in britain.

I would generally agree with that post but with reservations. You are right about the food thing. With the exception of rice a lot is available free of charge by simply picking it off wild trees. That's a big help but rice is expensive here by local standards so its a problem. Sometimes there is free distribution but not often.
neighbours and family do help but the poorest tend to be from poor families so help is limited.
The biggest problem is medical care. People die of silly things or things that are manageable in the UK.
One of the funerals I went to was a 40+ year old bloke who died from a fall. He just slipped and strained something in his neck. No cash to go to hospital so the damaged artery ended up bursting after a couple of days and that was that.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

How much would the hospital have charged?

 

[harpo]

'White Man Sees Asian Poverty and Thinks He Understands'

You can pontificate all you want about having seen desperate poverty, but you didn't grow up in it and you've always got the option of flying home, so stop pretending like living in proximity to very poor people gives you some special insight when all you're really doing is manipulating their poverty to get an easy life.

Those countries are full of men like that. Shagging their way round, mediocrities where they came from, 'big shots' there. Look at my money! Look how I stay here! Look how god damn GOOD I am to shag your daughter and give you money. Gambia is the same.

 

[jimadore]

rich or poor= lack

There are many types of poverty or lack ? is that what you mean? not just money, lonelyness is poverty ,no family is poverty , lots and lots of lack, dont understand your question.The rich have poverty someone is allways richer than you or poor there is allways someone poorer than you.

 

[pinkmonkey]

It's daft isn't it? Real poverty is everywhere, it's not unique to Java or any third world countries.

 

[pinkmonkey]

Yeah. I lived in the Gambia, west Africa. One of the worst indicators of poverty for me was people dying too young without even being able to get a diagnosis, never mind treatment. It's quite shit to hear someone of 25 who doesn't know why they're dying.

if you are talking Gambia, then its not just men gonig out there and flashin thier cash is it?

 

[Yossarian]

Those countries are full of men like that. Shagging their way round, mediocrities where they came from, 'big shots' there. Look at my money! Look how I stay here! Look how god damn GOOD I am to shag your daughter and give you money. Gambia is the same.

'They can't be that poor - food grows on trees!'

 

[derf]

'White Man Sees Asian Poverty and Thinks He Understands'

You can pontificate all you want about having seen desperate poverty, but you didn't grow up in it and you've always got the option of flying home, so stop pretending like living in proximity to very poor people gives you some special insight when all you're really doing is manipulating their poverty to get an easy life.

I didn't grow up in that sort of poverty but if you care to read the thread you may notive I mentioned growing up in what would be considered very poor conditions in the UK. I always thought that was a rough way to live but its sod all compared to what I see here every day.
I don't have the option of flying home. I live here and my whole life is here including my wife and 1 year old.
I don't live in proximity to poor people, I live with them. We are all part of the same village and there is a bond that has developed. I am part of the village in every sense.
Living in a village like this does give you an insight to the way of life. You would have to be blind for it not to.
I do not manipulate their poverty in any way. It wasn't my choice to move here but my wife's. She bought the house while I was still in the UK. The fact that I agreed and feel it was a good move is a bonus but I was going to live in one of the larger cities.
As for the way I live. I do have a nice house and enjoy a good lifestyle but that only has a positive effect on the village. I spend more than most here and most is spent in the village so the businesses have gained a boost from my being here.
So being here and living with the people does give you an insight things as long as you have the right attitude and want to be part of the place you live in.

 

[derf]

How much would the hospital have charged?

I can't be sure but I can be sure it a major op would have been way over his ability to pay.
The birth of my daughter with 2 nights rest in hospital cost two million.
My wife's cousin has caesarian. That cost 9 million.

Most people here tend to earn up to Rp400,000/month in manual jobs or up to 2 million for a well paid teacher or a highish ranking copper with a lot of years behind them.

That should give you an idea of scale.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

There are millions of people who live right next door to other people in awful poverty and just think "yeah, but fuck 'em".

When I was in the US one of the things that got to me was seeing skyscrapers with corporate HQs of vast multinationals literally across the road from row houses, half of them burnt out and the other half falling apart. Guess what, people in the latter couldn't afford to go to the doctor's either.

 

[harpo]

if you are talking Gambia, then its not just men gonig out there and flashin thier cash is it?

Well, that comment was based on an experience about 20 years ago when a bloke we knew just died and nobody knew why or even thought it was their right to know. It's a memory that's stayed with me.

If you are talking about sex tourism, yes, the place is thick with it. Older women with young boys, older men with young women. I see it, I don't judge. As usual, the situation is worse for women. If young men are suspected of selling sex they pay the nearest cop and walk away, if women are, they're made to go publically picking litter. But that's not really my experience of Gambia. I went there for the music and I still do.

 

[pinkmonkey]

An aquaintence of mine just married a Gambian (she met him on holiday). I can't help thinking it'll all end in tears, she hasn't given it chance either, got pregnant a month before the wedding. I hope it works out for both of them but it seems so forced. She wants the whole package, wedding baby, good looking husband and she seemed to rush out there and get what she wanted <worries>. I guess she's very young and hasn't thought it through.

 

[derf]

Those countries are full of men like that. Shagging their way round, mediocrities where they came from, 'big shots' there. Look at my money! Look how I stay here! Look how god damn GOOD I am to shag your daughter and give you money. Gambia is the same.

But that neglects to consider the area and it's culture.
This is a Muslim country and the area is populated with conservative Muslims.
That doesn't mean all the women have to walk around in ninja kit with just a slit for the eyes but it does mean that shagging around is out of the question That is before you consider that I'm married with a young daughter so your attempt to suggest I'm out here being a bastard is one off the mark.

That may well be the case in some places but it isn't here.

 

[harpo]

An aquaintence of mine just married a Gambian (she met him on holiday). I can't help thinking it'll all end in tears, she hasn't given it chance either, got pregnant a month before the wedding. I hope it works out for both of them but it seems so forced. She wants the whole package, wedding baby, good looking husband and she seemed to rush out there and get what she wanted <worries>. I guess she's very young and hasn't thought it through.

Ahh...that's an old, old tale. I can't comment,really, but what I will say is, if they're a similar age, then Gambians can be very serious about family committments. She could quite probably do much worse.

 

[harpo]

But that neglects to consider the area and it's culture.
This is a Muslim country and the area is populated with conservative Muslims.
That doesn't mean all the women have to walk around in ninja kit with just a slit for the eyes but it does mean that shagging around is out of the question That is before you consider that I'm married with a young daughter so your attempt to suggest I'm out here being a bastard is one off the mark.

That may well be the case in some places but it isn't here.

Fair play, I don't know you.

 

[AKA pseudonym]

Derf,
read this thread with some interest..
I've seen, experienced etc..

Other than trying to wind up people with your pontificating what is your actual point..
I would rather hear solutions than what i saw on me holidays guff.. I think they called it 'show and tell' at school for those who had the privilege of education.. I think most here may have left school by now..
So maybe we could have mature discussion sometime instead of this endless childish prattle..
I personally dont have the answers but i have plenty of questions.. and will engage with and work with anyone who is genuinely willing to erradicate international poverty..

I think another poster summed this thread up accurately


suppose i really should learn to use the ignore function soon