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Who *do* the Americans want to govern Palestine?

Ann:"Apologising for the treatment of 'Palestinians." First off Ann, until 1948 there was no such thing as a "Palestinian." Until 1834 there was no sense at all of a seaprate indentity among regional Arabs. Even then they began to indentify themselves as "Southern Syrians." Only in 1948 when Jews ceased being labled "Palestinians" and instead labeled Israelis were the Arabs able to coopt the name "Palestinian."

That said, who mistreated them? in 1919 they too were offered an independant homeland that would have included more than 70% of the total landmass in the British Mandate. That 70% included well over 60% of the total arable land. What did they say? "NO." then in 1920 they iniated a 16 year round of terrorism against the Manadate Jews, a period in which no Jew ever responded with violence regardless of the British refusal or inability to protect them from it.

In 1922, Britain lopped off almost half of the Arabs 70% portion and gave it to a [Saudi] Arabian tribe called the Hashemites. This was to be known as Trans-Jordan [later shortened to Jordan in 1949]. Still Britain persisted in offering the "Palestinians" their own land. Still they refused.

In 1948 the UN ratified Israel into existence. The war that immediately followed resulting in Jordan occupying the so called "West Bank" taking nearly 20% more of the "Palestinian" portion." The rest, Gaza, was occupied by Egypt. Jordan annexed their portion, Egypt maintained a military occupation.

The 1948 War alos resulted in many "Palestinian" refugess. Most left because they chose to, in fact nearly all did so. After the war, in 1949, the UN mediated a stelltment where any refugess wishing toi do so could return to their homes in Israel Proper provided they swore an oath of fealty to the State of Israel. those that refused but who could also provide legal proof of orperty within Israel Proper were offered a UN mediated cash settlement paid by Israel. So much for their refugee status and "Right of Return."

In the 1967 War Israel gained both Gaza and the so called "West Bank." Israel iniated a military administration over both but agreed to cede both if the "Palestinians" would field a negotiating team that would agree to two prerequisites: I] Recognition of Israel, II] Renounciation of terror and agreement to live in peaceful coexistence.

Until 1988 this was totally refused. At that point talks began, even while the First Intifadeh was happening, to reach a compromise that would allow the first steps in "Palestinian Statehood," this ended up with Madrid then Oslo. Oslo of course led to the PA.

In 2005 Israel ceded all of Gaza and part of the "WB." Now Israel is set to cede the rest of the "WB" except 6% which will remain in the Jerusalem Consolidation. This 6% will be offset by 6% of Israeli land.

So...Listen less to propaganda and more to facts.
 
Rhys: You need to study your history, the Nazi party DID win in democratic elections. These elctions put it into position for the boost by Hindenburgh.

As for America's dirty work, you REALLY need to study history as well as geopolitics. America and Israel have a tactical alliance, not a friendship. Alliance are built around insterseting objectives, not shared ideology. Israels usefullness to America is about used up, hence the steep reduction in AID levels which will bottom out within 10 years barring any significant regional changes.

Nino: "2 State Solution only beenfits Israel." Then why do the "Palestinians" want it?
 
Rachamim: You again give out 'facts' which are based on nothing but fabrication, distortion, bias or naïvety. I'd just like to point out where you have gone wrong in those last few posts to show you are not so up on your history yourself.

1) "Last I heard, no Irish terrorist was walking into a pizza parlor and detonating his bomb belt thus taking a 10 month infant to hell with him. Irish tended to try at least, to target military targets. Harrods and a couple of other cases were exceptions rather than the rule."

31st October 1971: Bomb explodes in Post Office tower link

4th December 1971: Bomb demolishes crowded Belfast pub link

10th September 1973: Bomb blasts rock central London link

17th May 1974: Dublin and Monaghan bomb kills 23 link

21st November 1974: Birmingham pub blasts kill 19 link

I could go on.

2) "As another said, the IRA first diarmed before taking part in the democratic process."

If this is true, why then does the Good Friday Agreement, one of the most important political developments in recent times in Northern Ireland, have the following as its provisions: (my emphasis)

  • The principle that the constitutional future of Northern Ireland should be determined by the majority vote of its citizens.
  • One commitment by all parties to "exclusively peaceful and democratic means".
  • The establishment of a Northern Ireland Assembly with devolved legislative powers.
  • Introduction of the cross-community principle for any major decision taken by the Assembly.
  • Creation of a 'power-sharing' Northern Ireland Executive, using the D'Hondt method to allocate Ministries proportionally to the main parties.
  • Creation of a North-South Ministerial Council and North-South Implementation Bodies to bring about cross-border cooperation in policy and programmes on a number of issues.
  • Creation of a British-Irish Inter-governmental Conference (replacing the former English-Irish Conference, established by the Anglo-Irish Agreement), which give a consulting role to the Irish Republic concerning not devolved matters.
  • Establishment of a British-Irish Council, composed of representatives from the governments of the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man, to discuss areas of common concern.
  • Conditional early release within two years of paramilitary prisoners belonging to organisations observing a ceasefire.
  • Establishment of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission
  • A two year target for decommissioning of paramilitary weapons.
  • The repealing of the Government of Ireland Act 1920 by the British Parliament. [1]
  • The abolition of the Republic's territorial claim to Northern Ireland via the modification Articles 2 and 3 of its constitution.
  • New legislation for Northern Ireland on policing, human rights and equality.
  • Normalisation of security measures, e.g. closure of redundant army bases.
  • Police reform, undertaken by the Patten Commission (1998–1999).
  • Equality of social, economic and cultural rights of all ethnic communities e.g. official recognition of the Irish and Ulster-Scots languages as equal to English.
  • Recognition of the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose.
  • Confirmation that the right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland

link

Surely if they have dis-armed before entering the democratic process, then there wouldn't be a provision of disarmament in the Agreement. Would there?

3) If you are proven to be pushing untruths as 'facts' again and again, how do you expect anyone to believe anything you say? To quote your own good advice back at you:

"So...Listen less to propaganda and more to facts."
 
rachamim18 said:
Rhys: You need to study your history, the Nazi party DID win in democratic elections. These elctions put it into position for the boost by Hindenburgh.
?

It got a huge boost when the Reichstag was burned just before the elections. The communists got blamed, and the Nazis won the election.

But........the Nazis were the ones burned the Reichstag themselves.
 
rachamim18 said:
Ann: The fact that HAMAS was democratically elcted is neither here nor there. HAMAS is a terrorist organisation. their Charter, among other things, calls for the murder of every Jew [not Israeli] on Earth. As another poster very correctly pointed out to you, Hitler himself was democratically elected.

"Israel is settling more and more 'Palestinian' land." I guess you slept through the August 2005 cedeing of Gaza in its entirety to the PA? And I guess you haven't yet heard about Israel's ceding of the "WB" within 18 months [that is that which has not already been ceded." It is the direct opposite of that which you claim.

As for "Why would America cre if HAMAS wishes to destroy Israel," ...Surely you are jesting.

Your loosely connecting Bush and Blair to Hitler is asinine. You really should exercisebetter judgement.

As for Annan's opinion, the UN has bumpkus to do with International Law. The war is not illegal from a strictly legal standpoint hence the absence of any calls for an indictment in the Hague. Annan himself shouls watch his mouth considering he pimped the UN for oil profits through his son, best friend, and subordinates. That was the truly illegal doings with Iraq.

"Consider the US position against Arafat, HAMAS< and Unity." Yes, let us. Hmmm. Arafat, murderer, terrorist, embezzler, and according to some perhaps worse but I will not touch on those assertions. In fact, Arafat was ostracised only until he fomally renounced terrorism [or should I more aptly say paid lip service to it]. At that point he enjoyed visits to the White House so you are wrong there. HAMAS is an internationally recognised terrorist organisation. Unity is only being ostracised among its HAMAS members. Its Fatah memebers are not.

"Not dealing with terrorists results in a stalemate." Nope, it results in denouncing terrorism in deed as well as words. You cannot gain in talking with terrorists.

As for "Palestinians" being disenfranchised, their leaders have always acted thus. No change.

"Look towards Nothern Ireland." Last I heard, no Irish terrorist was walking into a pizza parlor and detonating his bomb belt thus taking a 10 month infant to hell with him. Irish tended to try at least, to target military targets. Harrods and a couple of other cases were exceptions rather than the rule. the converse is true with "Palestinians." in fact, they almost never target military sites or personel.

The Mid-East is not the Uk. You need to take off your cultural blinders and try to learn a bit more about our mindset before you attempt to understand us. As another said, the IRA first diarmed before taking part in the democratic process.


HAMAS has been reassured over and over by the UN, EU, and America that if it does in fact renounce terrorsim and recognise Israel's Right to Exist it will be formally recognised and enjoy all that goes with that. You are wrong about that as well.

The longer US and Israel rebuff moderates? What? Who do you think the moderates are? In this case it is Abbas [although this is not saying much at all].

Moono: As long as you obsess about black and white you will never see the real picture. Westerners like you are so cute with theiur fiegned indignance when the only hardship they have ever had to face is their credit card statement. The day you face a gun I will start taking your nonsense seriously.
All you talk of eggs and quoting rabid propaganda sheets. Please...That is not reality. Reality is here where I live. I dare say you will not find too many Israelis or even Arabs obsessing over your nation and you rlife, so why obsess over ours?



You've had 5 months-no more excuses. Where's the proof?
 
I don't think the US want peace - any more than Israel does. If the US wanted a peaceful solution in Palestine all they had to do was stop vetoing UN resolutions concerning Israel. IMO Israel and the US won't be happy until the Palestinians are wiped/driven out completely from their own country.

Exerpt below from 'Israel doesn't want peace' printed in Haaretz yesterday.

The world has been turned upside down and it is Israel that stands at the forefront of refusal. The policy of refusal of a select few, a vanguard of the extreme, has now become the official policy of Jerusalem. In his Passover interviews, Olmert will tell us that, "The Palestinians stand at the crossroads of a historic decision," but people stopped taking him seriously a long time ago. The historic decision is ours, and we are fleeing from this crossroads and from these initiatives as if from death itself.

Terror, used as the ultimate excuse for Israeli refusal, only helps Olmert keep reciting, ad nauseum, "If they [the Palestinians] don't change, don't fight terror and don't adhere to any of their obligations, then they will never extract themselves from their unending chaos." As though the Palestinians haven't taken measures against terrorism, as though Israel is the one to determine what their obligations are, as though Israel isn't to blame for the unending chaos Palestinians suffer under the occupation.

Israel makes a point of setting prerequisites and believes it has an exclusive right to do so. But, time and time again, Israel avoids the most basic prerequisite for any just peace - an end to the occupation. Of all the questions asked during his Passover interviews, no one bothered to ask Olmert why he didn't react with excitement to the recent Arab initiatives, without preconditions? The answer: real estate. The real estate of the settlements.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/846420.html
 
Fez: I, a person who counts English as about his 5th language, am able to discern from the statement, "I think," that a person is not conclusively stating facts. You however seem to not be able to tell the difference. I do thank you for pointing out that the Northern Irish are capable of being just as base as "Palestinian" militants but that is neither here nor there. The sad fact is, Ireland [Northern or otherwise] is not the Mid-East.

In terms of sheer numbers, in terms of so called "Suicide Bombing," and in terms of indoctrination of youth into the cult of martyrdom via pervasive media images and an educational system that further reinfocres these images, Northern Ireland would have to do alot of cathcing up to be naywhere near the base inhumanity of the "Palestinian" militant groups and the social cureents within Gaza and most of the so called "West Bank."

As for your second point, it seems you have not even read it. The fact that all parties must commit to EXCLUSIVELY peaceful means is indicative that disavowing all terrorist acts is a prerequisite to particpation in the political process.

Admittedly, as you highlighted, for some inane reason, the IRA was given a 2 year grace period for disarmament. To me it makes no snese but then the Irish are not Arabs and Northern Ireland, as I have said many times, is not in the Middle- East.

Now, admittedly it might be a faux paux but I do believe regardless of the provisions listed, that the IRA was in fact pressured to and did in fact diarm before being given carte blanche for participation. Either way though, again, it has nothing to do with the Middle-East. If I ever get time I might look into it but I somehow doubt it since I really could not give half a rat's as# what happens in Europe as long as it stays away from here.

And for pulling lines out of one thread and tossing them into another, you should be embarrssed. I do not follow nor care for any European propaganda. I have said it before and will say it again here:The West is inherently morally sorrupt and can teach us nothing. The EU is deluded and dangerous in every way.

Johnny: Yes, that is very true. The Nazis were the culprits.

Grandma: I hate even wasting a few seconds to type this to you, if you have not read my short but clear message to you in the first paragraph of the first post I made yesterday, please do so. I am an adult witrh alot of responsibilities and the fact that I even remembered to mention your bent obsession yesterday says too much already. I will get to it when I get to it and not before. If it really is driving you to such extremes you just might take it upon yourself to do a thorough online search and find the the information yourself. It is a television program and a trial, not state secrets and should be rather easy for a person with alot of time on their hands, such as youself, to find . If not, you will have to keep banging your head against the wall, muttering and cursing to yourself, and just wait until I finish my tour.

Ann: Another person with limited vocabulary. is it not amazing that people like you who rail about the supposed injustices facing the poor downtrodden of the world can not seem to hold themselves together to hold discourse with a civil person of a different opinion? I mean really. Here you are complaining how brutal and rought things are and here I am offering a different take. I do so in a civil and measures [if very unemotional way] and all you can see fit to do is offer expletives. Bravo. Sadly, I am not suprised.

Moono: Big words are nice but if you were able to perhaps string them together into meangiful sentences that did not ape blatant propaganda sites verbatim it would be even better. Youth is on your side. I have faith that you will see the light.

Zamb: Israel does not want peace? Ha. Take a peek at what Moono's idols are doing: www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/122094
 
rachamim18 said:
Grandma: I hate even wasting a few seconds to type this to you, if you have not read my short but clear message to you in the first paragraph of the first post I made yesterday, please do so. I am an adult witrh alot of responsibilities and the fact that I even remembered to mention your bent obsession yesterday says too much already. I will get to it when I get to it and not before. If it really is driving you to such extremes you just might take it upon yourself to do a thorough online search and find the the information yourself. It is a television program and a trial, not state secrets and should be rather easy for a person with alot of time on their hands, such as youself, to find . If not, you will have to keep banging your head against the wall, muttering and cursing to yourself, and just wait until I finish my tour.

Hey fucko-Ive searched-and couldnt find anything. Just to remind you-it was you who made the claim-you who said the information is readily available-so go find it. Ive turned the world wide web upside down with no joy. So go on liar boy-make me look an idiot prove me wrong, go on I dare you-because right now you are looking like a dishonest lying cunt and you are making no attempt to prove me wrong.
 
rachamim18 said:
and just wait until I finish my tour.

Do the zionists never give you a break from baby killing? You've been promising me this information for the last 5 months with no break at all? Yet...surprisingly you have time to post these mammoth 'well sourced' replies but have little time to find information that is readily available.

Go on liarboy-I have asked you now for 5 months on and on and on-and the only excuse you can give is that 'whilst on tour I am unable to provide the information readily available' explain to me like I'm a five year old-how the fuck does that work then? :rolleyes:
 
I will feel sorry for you and waste yet more of my time telling you this short message. Why do you feel that you cannot express yourself without resorting to lame expletives? Are you that common? Really now. You childishly use some make believe name and then pretend like you really care about exploring issues around the world. Brillant! I will tell you for tha last time, in plain English, I am a very busy man. I enjoy what little time I spend on this forum and others [when able] and do not feel that I should have to throw every thread I participate in off track by taking time to personally respond to every expletive laden screed you toss out. Let us see if you can finally get the message: I will GRACIOUSLY provide the 3 requested sources WHEN I finish my tour [which looks to end now on or about May19th] and feel like it. Otherwise, do me, yourself, and this forum a huge favor and start demonstrating some civlity and some maturity. Thank you in advance.
 
rachamim18 said:
I will feel sorry for you and waste yet more of my time telling you this short message. Why do you feel that you cannot express yourself without resorting to lame expletives? Are you that common? Really now. You childishly use some make believe name and then pretend like you really care about exploring issues around the world. Brillant! I will tell you for tha last time, in plain English, I am a very busy man. I enjoy what little time I spend on this forum and others [when able] and do not feel that I should have to throw every thread I participate in off track by taking time to personally respond to every expletive laden screed you toss out. Let us see if you can finally get the message: I will GRACIOUSLY provide the 3 requested sources WHEN I finish my tour [which looks to end now on or about May19th] and feel like it. Otherwise, do me, yourself, and this forum a huge favor and start demonstrating some civlity and some maturity. Thank you in advance.

Hush your mouth liarboy-Im fed up of your excuses. You claim this information is readily available....so go on...go get it. Prove me wrong. Im daring you liarboy.
 
No Grandma, barring the predicted war , I will be Seaparating [Retired in Full] on May 19th. I have the pension grade I wanted and it is time to take my wife backk to her country as I promised. If war comes, and it is a possiblity [I doubt it though as I am going with the summer on that one], then all bets are off as they will freeze all personel.
 
rachamim18 said:
No Grandma, barring the predicted war , I will be Seaparating [Retired in Full] on May 19th. I have the pension grade I wanted and it is time to take my wife backk to her country as I promised. If war comes, and it is a possiblity [I doubt it though as I am going with the summer on that one], then all bets are off as they will freeze all personel.

Guess what-I can smell another excuse.


You are so predictable :rolleyes:
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
no point arguing with a fuckwit like rachamim

Fuckwittery has nothing to do with it.

There's no point in arguing with him because he has no credibility.

That's not to say that he isn't a fuckwit, just that judging on fuckwittery (or overweening arrogance, a trait he displays in spades with his casual dismissal of any opinion or fact that doesn't accord to his worldview) alone would let him off the hook too easily. :)
 
Yes, let us watse even more time playing ad home games. I who have revealed all have no credibility while adults named Panda and Death are the fountains of intellectual honesty. Whatever. Yet, for those that do not agree with your nonsense I will keep chugging along providing easily verifiable facts while you persist in your delusional state imagining better lives for people who do not care if you live or die.

For the record, this will be the last time i feed into your and others games. I will instead continue responding factually and if you and anyone else does not like it you would be advised to place me on ignore. Really, if you or anyone else truly had a problem with my creidibility you would have done so long ago. Time to grow up.
 
ZAMB: Don Imus represents noone. He has just been booted from television sysndication [MSNBC, etc.] for making supposedly racist comments [they were not racist at all] about female college basketball players. He is about to be booted off of radio as well as protests are growing everyday across the NE in America.

Why not instead focus on the comments uttered by actual politicians, the true arbiters of what America wants?



[edited for spelling]
 
rachamim18 said:
Yet, for those that do not agree with your nonsense I will keep chugging along providing easily verifiable facts

Would these be same easy verifiable facts like:

Proof that the ISM leadership admitted to doctoring photos of Rachel Corrie.

Proof that Captain R successfully sued Uvda and the trial is now over.

Proof that during that trial the makers of the show that features Captain R admitted their segment was 'pure fantasy.'

You keep on insisting that these facts that you maintained over five months ago are easily verifiable-so please stop posting. Go get these easy to find facts-put us all out of our misery. You dont need to work hard to get them after all?

Really, if you or anyone else truly had a problem with my credibility you would have done so long ago. Time to grow up.

I questioned your credibility 5 months ago liarboy-the games up now. Time to provide the proof or leave this forum.
 
rachamim18 said:
Yes, let us watse even more time playing ad home games. I who have revealed all have no credibility while adults named Panda and Death are the fountains of intellectual honesty.
You think posting your name gives you credibility?
It doesn't do anything of the sort, what gives credibility is honesty rather than dissembling, fact instead of spin, truth instead of lies.
Whatever. Yet, for those that do not agree with your nonsense I will keep chugging along providing easily verifiable facts while you persist in your delusional state imagining better lives for people who do not care if you live or die.
Facts that are so easily verifiable that you appear to be the only person with access to those facts.
For the record, this will be the last time i feed into your and others games. I will instead continue responding factually and if you and anyone else does not like it you would be advised to place me on ignore. Really, if you or anyone else truly had a problem with my creidibility you would have done so long ago. Time to grow up.
Nice, playing at being the injured party.

Perhaps if your self-proclaimed honesty extended far enough to cover the claims you make, you could play the injured party with some success, as it is you wriggle like a maggot baiting a hook, you dissemble, you evade and you lie. Publicly displaying your name and citing your address doesn't reinvigorate or replace the credibility you lose through your dissembling.

Stop running and either give "Grandma Death" his facts or admit you lied. Piss or get the fuck off the pot.
 
Panda: "what gives credibility is honesty." Let us examine your blurb abd the words preceeding it. What's in a name as they say? hmmmm...honesty perhaps? If a person cannot even verify who they are how in the world would anyone hope to belive their version of things? I stand by what I say and I bank it with my name. I enjoy the little posting I do despite the best efforts of you and yours but there came a time when people could not come up with facts [like right about now, hmmm...] and even went so far as to call me a Nazi pretending to be a Jew, etc., etc. I am sure even you with your selective memory can recall.

This is what inspired me [my middle name is literally "inspired" Ra'anan] to share all my paticulars with the forum. I thought, what better way to establish what is what. Still I was the only one who felt that way since all chose to stand behind their whimisical and otherwise b.s. labels. Like Panda, etc.

That is not to say that everything I say will ever be 100% correct, only that I stand behind it. How about you?

I would also like to add that far from being a "injured party," the reason I will mostly desist from playing in your pissing contests is because it is an utter waste of time. Why even respond to ad homs and expletice laden rants? I hardly have time to post as it is.
 
rachamim18 said:
Panda: "what gives credibility is honesty." Let us examine your blurb abd the words preceeding it. What's in a name as they say? hmmmm...honesty perhaps? If a person cannot even verify who they are how in the world would anyone hope to belive their version of things? I stand by what I say and I bank it with my name. I enjoy the little posting I do despite the best efforts of you and yours but there came a time when people could not come up with facts [like right about now, hmmm...] and even went so far as to call me a Nazi pretending to be a Jew, etc., etc. I am sure even you with your selective memory can recall.

This is what inspired me [my middle name is literally "inspired" Ra'anan] to share all my paticulars with the forum. I thought, what better way to establish what is what. Still I was the only one who felt that way since all chose to stand behind their whimisical and otherwise b.s. labels. Like Panda, etc.

That is not to say that everything I say will ever be 100% correct, only that I stand behind it. How about you?

I would also like to add that far from being a "injured party," the reason I will mostly desist from playing in your pissing contests is because it is an utter waste of time. Why even respond to ad homs and expletice laden rants? I hardly have time to post as it is.


Expletive-laden?

What's your definition of "laden"? It must differ from what any dictionary says, because the most expetives I've ever seen in a post addressed to you is two or three.

As for the rest of your whine, as I said previously, posting your real name doesn't bestow credibility on your rantings.

Facts do that.

Not "Racha-facts", either.
 
Isreal of course, whatever Liberal tinged rhetoric spews forth from Bush & Co about a mutual arrangment between the Jews and Palistinians is bollocks, they need their reliable buddy in the middle east and Isreal is it.
 
northernhoard said:
Isreal of course, whatever Liberal tinged rhetoric spews forth from Bush & Co about a mutual arrangment between the Jews and Palistinians is bollocks, they need their reliable buddy in the middle east and Isreal is it.

Or, rather, Israel is somewhat more reliable than the US's other ally in the region; Saudi Arabia.
 
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