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who are the real left and who are not?

FridgeMagnet said:
real-left.jpg
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That is actually quite funny! :D
 
dennisr said:
poster is clearly on drugs at the moment (he is far too happy...) and therefore excludes himself for his own criminal leanings -
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.. now you know that poster is the Guardian Of the New Autochthonous Dawn, or GONAD to all we plebs, and so is exempt from such mortal limitations....
 
bluestreak said:
OK, so this 'New Left' are only working class and born in the UK and everyone else is the enemy?

I'm all in favour of making Britain as self-sufficient in terms of industrial work as possible, reducing imports etc etc, but what is the role of non-industrial labour under their terms? Are we to cease to be a knowledge economy completely? Do roles such as marketing, financial work, academia etc. continue to exist or are they state run?

Is it a fully nationalised economy?

Do we have completely closed borders and no longer operate even an asylum immigration system? Similiarly, are the British allowed to emigrate?

If there are no groups currently how will we know if a new left-group set up is cod-left or Proper New Socialist left.

Who are the political theorists that influence the Proper Socialist Left? if there are none, should someone not start publishing in order to gain working class support. And who?

Is the new left parliamentary or revolutionary?
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Anyone?

So far the leaders of the Proper New Socialist Left have been able to tell us a few things they're not, and a few things they are, but I need more.

Also, what counts as oppressed? what's the wage cut-off for oppression, or indeed the seniority cut-off? Is a teacher oppressed? What about a headteacher? these are just examples. Who are the PNSL appealing to in reality?
 
poster342002 said:
A good start. There are others - such as victims of crime (especially organsied crime - which is a particularly nasty form of capitalist oppression), for instance. Basically, almost everyone who'se been under the heel of the boot in society.
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OK, so we know who you are including in your new left. But what will this new left say? What is left wing about it rather than right wing, for eg?

What will it say about wage labour, about the police, about the role of women in society, about immigration, about crime, about unemployment? How will it address those issues, in your opinion?
 
Christ, you're all asking me to write an entire political manifesto in the space of an afternoon! :eek:

A lot of it isn't/wouldn't even be down to me anyway. It's down to the people who eventualy coalesce to form a new, proper leftwing socialist movement. That's democracy.
 
poster342002 said:
Christ, you're all asking me to write an entire political manifesto in the space of an afternoon! :eek:

A lot of it isn't/wouldn't even be down to me anyway. It's down to the people who eventualy coalesce to form a new, proper leftwing socialist movement.
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You could dash off a sentence on each or choose one or two, or at least tell us what you think this left would say that is different from say a labour type party or a fascist party. I have no clue what you think will be its programme, only who you think it should comprise.
 
poster342002 said:
A lot of it isn't/wouldn't even be down to me anyway. It's down to the people who eventualy coalesce to form a new, proper leftwing socialist movement. That's democracy.
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but what would you say if you were asked by all these people in this new movement?

It's a bit silly to say 'there'll be a movement but I've no idea what it will stand for until it forms and decides'
 
poster342002 said:
I'd say "good questions! let's sit down and talk and come up with an agreed manifesto". :D
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OK, so if hypothetically I wanted a complete halt to immigration, expulsion of foreign prisoners, Muslims to be denied the right to air travel, a massive boost in social security payments for genuine UK citizens and more power to the police to stop and search, what would you say?
 
If only ern were still with us, he'd be able to identify a posters place on the left spectrum simply by looking at a photo:(
 
Spion said:
OK, so if hypothetically I wanted a complete halt to immigration, expulsion of foreign prisoners, Muslims to be denied the right to air travel, a massive boost in social security payments for genuine UK citizens and more power to the police to stop and search, what would you say?
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Apart from "Hello Treelover/Keyboard Jockey"

:D

JOKE
 
If only ern were still with us, he'd be able to identify a posters place on the left spectrum simply by looking at a photo
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It'd be a strange reversal of the system the Nazi's and Victorians used to identify dengenerates wouldn't it? The healthiest, good looking types up against the wall, and the scabbed, hunched figures with flies swarming around them would be in...
 
Can I announse myself as starting the first schism and breakaway group in the New Socialist Movement (or whatever it's called). I disagree with the idea we shoul 'get together'. The internet is a perfectly good medium, and besides some of you will smell.
 
interesting. Should we embrace technology and form policy via the medium of (for example) a popular website's politics discussion forum, or shall we revert to the old tradition of meeting in the back room of a pub?
 
As a serious point, I think the internet should only form a minimal part of any new movement - for a variety of reasons. Not the least being that not everyone has access to the web and would, therefore, be disenfranchised.
 
it is not a class thing - everyone is welcome in the real left. Kyser is right all new forms like the internet will be part of it. It will not be a vanguard, elite with democtratic centralism at its heart. So all fans of the latter not welcome.

It would have to be quite broad and start with developing a strategy of getting quick wins (everyone luvs a winner). It would have to be realistic and have winnable goals.

It should be cheap to join and have a big emphasis on social events. The left cod or elsewhere lost their sight on fun a long time ago.
 
Zeppo said:
it is not a class thing - everyone is welcome in the real left. Kyser is right all new forms like the internet will be part of it. It will not be a vanguard, elite with democtratic centralism at its heart. So all fans of the latter not welcome.

It would have to be quite broad and start with developing a strategy of getting quick wins (everyone luvs a winner). It would have to be realistic and have winnable goals.

It should be cheap to join and have a big emphasis on social events. The left cod or elsewhere lost their sight on fun a long time ago.
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thoughts poster?
 
I think the internet should only form a minimal part of any new movement
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Are you having a laugh? That's like being a Victorian Workers' Rights agitator and saying 'We only use pamphlets sparingly because not everyone can read, and they'll be disenfranchised'

Personally I think that any such undertaking should focus on how participants can help each other out - free literacy and numeracy classes, media&work exchanges (i.e. lending people books, setting up localised skills dbs).

And...controversially...keeping politics, theory and the rest of it out of the equation as long as possible. People need to remember that they are able to govern their own lives, that working together is better than working alone etc. You don't need Marx to empower people, but people need to practice being empowered.

And never give it a name. Ever. As soon as you name something there's a 'flag' to rally around, and that's when hearts and minds start to close...
 
Zeppo said:
it is not a class thing - everyone is welcome in the real left. Kyser is right all new forms like the internet will be part of it. It will not be a vanguard, elite with democtratic centralism at its heart. So all fans of the latter not welcome.

It would have to be quite broad and start with developing a strategy of getting quick wins (everyone luvs a winner). It would have to be realistic and have winnable goals.

It should be cheap to join and have a big emphasis on social events. The left cod or elsewhere lost their sight on fun a long time ago.
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This is just turning into a festival of vagueness. I've no clue what this movement will stand for, what are these quick winnable and realistic wins it'll aim for?

I'm starting to think that this kind of thinking is actually indicative of the key problem we have. While the likes of the BNP are very ably setting out what they want, a major chunk of 'left' people who want to see change - as typified by this post - do not have the first clue what they want, or are scared to say so in case they seem 'uninclusive' or something.
 
kyser_soze said:
You don't need Marx to empower people, but people need to practice being empowered.
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You need both IMO, If you don't have the former you'll never understand why you don't have power. And if you don't have the latter you'll be wasting your time just knowing the former. Linking the two is the key issue, IMO
 
kyser_soze said:
It'd be a strange reversal of the system the Nazi's and Victorians used to identify dengenerates wouldn't it? The healthiest, good looking types up against the wall, and the scabbed, hunched figures with flies swarming around them would be in...
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That's just for a short time after the revolution. They are then replaced with 'model citizens' - healthy, good looking types but schooled in the right way of thinking.
 
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