Who are the great female "thinkers" and philosophers?

[cesare]

Wanker.

 

[Jonti]

* places abusive poster on ignore

 

[cesare]

* places abusive poster on ignore

Oh noes

 

[ymu]

I'm not going to stick up for everything MM says in "Science and Poetry".

But you chose to reproduce that particular quote, in a post you say was pointing out how wonderful she is. That's the only one you need to defend, and you're not even prepared to do that?

But then again, you go on to defend it ... OK ...

Many a true word is spoken in jest. The effect of the "joke" is to say one is "nothing but" an assemblage of quarks and leptons/atoms/molecules/whatever. MM's point is exactly that such a view is inadequate.

Of course it is. You're not going to find any serious physicists who disagree with that. That's why it's a science joke, not a scientific theory. As I said, it's a straw man. The universe didn't need help from physicists to know about stuff - creating physicists is the way it gets to know about stuff. What makes a human being beyond the atoms they contain is irrelevant (for the purposes of this joke).

 

[Jonti]

That I'm not going to defend everything MM says does not preclude me from defending somethings she says.

You say here the view MM lampoons is literally true. But immediately above, you seem to back what she says, and claim no-one really has the view she lampoons.

Thing is, many people do ascribe to the kind of reductive (in terms of currently known physical principles) strict materialism of the sort she lampoons. Not saying that position is particularly well-thought out, but strict reductive determinism, of the sort that sees toothache as essentially unreal and epiphenomenal, is alive and well.

I can hold that Midgely is right to challenge that even if I disagree with some aspects of her argument.

 

[ymu]

It is literally true that physicists would not exist without the universe. It matters not what they are made of. The reductionist "atoms" is because it's supposed to be a snappy joke, not a precisely correct scientific treatise.

 

[Jonti]

Have you ever noticed how a joke explained is not funny?

I think you're putting your finger on why MM's efforts in Poetry and Science don't really hit the mark. It's fair enough to say that it would be ludicrous and stupid to attempt, say, poetic criticism, in terms of physical laws and circumstances. And it's almost as obvious that to seek an explanation of a police baton charge in terms of neurotransmitters and brain activities is a similar sort of error.

It's not a question of the low level explanation being literally true or false. It's that it simply doesn't make sense. It's no kind of an explanation at all.

 

[ymu]

Have you ever noticed how a joke explained is not funny?

At least this one wasn't funny to begin with.

(((physicists)))

 

[Vintage Paw]

is this euro/westerncentric? what about other parts of the world, where one might argue that an increase in wealth/consumerism is leading to the (albeit constrained within a capitalist system) development of feminist action?

I'm thinking of the "Coalition of Pubgoing, Loose & Forward Looking Women and their Pink Chaddi campaign in India. It's perhaps not the best example, as they appear to be opposing fundamentalism in general rather than sexism per se, but you get the general gist...?

I don't actually know anything about those movements, but I direct you to cesare's post below:

Fatigued.

Capitalism and patriarchy are completely entwined. I don't see any realistic economic alternative to Capitalism, but there are two clear alternatives to patriarchy. Unfortunately, Capitalism won't allow either of them. The most you can hope to achieve are small steps.

While women use capitalism/consumerism to gain equality eventually it will bite them on the arse, as it does all 'minorities'. Someone has to be oppressed under capitalism. In fact, lots of different groups have to be oppressed under capitalism. It's just the way it works. Different groups might vye for higher or lower positions in the hierarchy of the oppressed, and some may gain a semblence of equality, but someone else will fill their place, or their equality will be but a veil, a trick that makes them good, happy consumers.

 

[tbaldwin]

Angela Davies, Sylvia Pankhurst.

 

[asbestos]

Kathy Acker

Valerie Solanas

 

[Frankie Jack]

There arn't many female thinkers and philosophers.. of note.. as women philosophically and religiously have been discredited in so many ways.. it's only recently that women have had the chance to speak out and be heard..

It's only in the last 60/70 years that women have had the chance to be heard and listened to.. before that they were unimportant and ignored.. generally..

When it comes down to bigotry and enforced attitudes.. women have experienced the whole gamut.. In these days there is a call for equality of thought and potential.. be it anyone of a different cast colour or lifestyle... One thing stays the same.. no matter who want's to be treated as an equal today.. women have experienced and fought againts the general male attitude that they are second class citizens on this planet.. and there is nothing that has or is being done to any aspect of humanity that hasn't been done to women since general or religious laws began.. and is still being done in this day and age..

Most women philosophers discuss unfairness and can associate with those that are unfairly treated... because the one thing thst never changes is the fact that those who are treated unfairly and still are.. it's almost guarenteed that that bigotry and controlling attitude was acted out on women aeons before the option to act against any man that did not conform to a book written point of view

Those of a different creed.. colour.. or sexuality now claim their right to be what they are.. while in some circumstances women still have to conform..

Women philosophers are only recently being given the chance to air their thoughts and ideals.. while in some parts of the world they are still given no chance to express themselves in any way..

There are many male philosophers.. from aeons back.. Women have only been allowed to read and write in a recent western world..

 

[Frankie Jack]

Any bloke with any clear thought would know that and not start silly threads without having a clue as to why women with a point of view are relatively recent and very western..

Middle eastern women are only now finding out they can express themselves.. European women are actually making a point of what they think the world and relationships are about... It used to be called feminism.. Now it's about not taking a bibliographical attitude and conforming..

Health.. wealth.. children and sexuality is not a male dominated lifestyle in Europe any more..

Women have a say and actually say it now...

much to the chagrin of men who have to make an effort now rather than be in control and expect their own pre defined control..

as weak and pathetic as that used to be...

Even Urban75 women are strong and have a say and express themselves in a way they wouldn't have 40 years ago...

The Ladies here have a philosophy that although isn't written is of value and a reality...

Female philosophy is a very recent phenonena.. and is mostly unwritten... as yet...

 

[goldenecitrone]

Iris Murdoch and Simone de Beauvoir.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I haven't read her for years, but I seem to recall finding Simone Weil a very original thinker when I was a student.

 

[The Groke]

Any bloke with any clear thought would know that and not start silly threads without having a clue as to why women with a point of view are relatively recent and very western..

Why does everyone question my motives.

 

[kyser_soze]

Feminism has been usurped by consumerism.

Co-opted would be a better way of looking at it, as have all identity politics in the last 40 years; another victory for divide and rule techniques for controlling and utilising radical concepts and mainstreaming them so that those who remain 'true' to the original concepts will become alienated from those who accept the SATC repackaged variant - same applies to race and homosexuality.

Women philosophers: Mary Shelley, Ada Byron, Emma Goldman, SdB, Firestone/Dworkin et al...

 

[asbestos]

SATC

SATC?

 

[kyser_soze]

Sex And The City

Cultural zeitgeist from about 3 or 4 years ago now.

 

[asbestos]

Sex And The City

Cultural zeitgeist from about 3 or 4 years ago now.

Ahh yes.. Not to worry, it'll be repackaged and sold back to us again soon enough.

 

[hp66]

I don't actually know anything about those movements, but I direct you to cesare's post below:



While women use capitalism/consumerism to gain equality eventually it will bite them on the arse, as it does all 'minorities'. Someone has to be oppressed under capitalism. In fact, lots of different groups have to be oppressed under capitalism. It's just the way it works. Different groups might vye for higher or lower positions in the hierarchy of the oppressed, and some may gain a semblence of equality, but someone else will fill their place, or their equality will be but a veil, a trick that makes them good, happy consumers.

Point well made & completely accepted. Thanks.

 

[kyser_soze]

Here's a flippant take on the question...

The reason there aren't as many female philosophers, is that philosophy is, or at least used to be, a willy waving excercise among non-physically adept males. It's intellectual jock-ism, and women have been far too busy actually getting on with the living life to bother joining in the boys' games of attempting to abstract it into absurdity.

 

[8ball]

Plus their ickle brains overheat if they try to think about anything other than shoes, chocolate or babies.

 

[kyser_soze]

Something someone said about Napoleons cleaner has stuck in my head - something about their relative merits in the grand scheme of history (I suspect it was Mr G talking about Hegel and the Spirit of humanity) and I thought to myself 'Yes, but Napoleon has passed, but the cleaner is still there, still cleaning, still living life, still going home to family and friends to break bread, to do all the mean and wonderful things people have done for millenia.'

For me the cleaner is the spirit of humanity, not some jumped up little Corsican on a horse. Anyway...

 

[phildwyer]

Plus their ickle brains overheat if they try to think about anything other than shoes, chocolate or babies.

There is of course a feminist critique of patriarchal philosophy that claims the search for absolute, unitary truth is all about the phallus or something.

 

[goldenecitrone]

There is of course a feminist critique of patriarchal philosophy that claims the search for absolute, unitary truth is all about the phallus or something.

What a load of old cock!

 

[phildwyer]

What a load of old cock!

Indeed. But you'd be surprised how widely espoused this theory is. It derives from Nietzsche, ironically enough, filtered through the linguistic determinism of Saussure and them.

 

[8ball]

Indeed. But you'd be surprised how widely espoused this theory is. It derives from Nietzsche, ironically enough, filtered through the linguistic determinism of Saussure and them.

Which just goes to show that a lot of academia is the same old bollocks the rest of us talk about down the pub, couched in fancy terms.

The reason these people get called clever is that they've found a way of getting paid for it.

Which, let's face it, is clever.

 

[Calum McD]

Hannah Arendt
Agnes Heller
Elizabeth Anscombe
Gillian Rose
...

 

[frogwoman]

Which just goes to show that a lot of academia is the same old bollocks the rest of us talk about down the pub, couched in fancy terms.

The reason these people get called clever is that they've found a way of getting paid for it.

Which, let's face it, is clever.