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Where's our money gone Gordon?

Fruitloop said:
In my experience private industry pisses money up the wall as well. In the time I've spent working in the private sector I've seen wastage like you wouldn't believe.

Oh absolutely. That's one reason why I think the 'private good, public bad' mentality of the right is so misinformed: the other is that there are many examples out there of state-run concerns that are demonstrably more efficient and effective than private ones. To return to an example I used earlier, the privatised railway system in this country needs several times the subsidy that old British Rail used to get, just to get the same results.
 
Roadkill said:
. . . Why not? Is it because (as the right would argue) governments always piss money up the wall, or does it more closely reflect failings specific to the British government? I would generally argue the latter, blaming the sort of things people have pointed to earlier in the thread: PFI, an obsession with managerialism, excessive bureaucracy and the like.

My take on it is that any very, very large project (Tube, NHS IT etc) is inherently impossible to deliver by nature of its size, sure, Govt's are, by and large, crap at delivery, but many of those companys who have taken these things on have also prooved to be useless.
 
A Dashing Blade said:
My take on it is that any very, very large project (Tube, NHS IT etc) is inherently impossible to deliver by nature of its size,

Other countries seem to manage it alright - largely IMO because these things are more often managed by integrated, state-run concerns and not broken up and parcelled out to various private firms, which immediately pushes up the cost and introduces difficulties of co-ordination etc.
 
A Dashing Blade said:
My take on it is that any very, very large project (Tube, NHS IT etc) is inherently impossible to deliver by nature of its size, sure, Govt's are, by and large, crap at delivery, but many of those companys who have taken these things on have also prooved to be useless.

Actually in the case of Metronet worse than useless. :-(
 
the problem with taxation is that it abdicates personal responsibility to the state creating state dependency to provide thus limiting personal choice. State policy making in main areas such as education, economic policy and judicial policy is closed off to public input and transperancy.

In particular education, there are many many criticisms that our educational intuitions do not create thinkers but, through the practice of teaching by rote, create unquestioning cogs who merely provide a function in the corporate sense.

In other words Humanity is commodified into another exploitable unquestioning resource.

Another area is that of health care which is primarily structured to treat symptoms once they occur thereby profiting the pharmaceuticals as opposed to a health care system which attempts perseveres human health.

There are many such examples which illustrate how, a centralised state tax system plays a fundamental role in restricting our freedom to achieve our fullest potential as humans.
 
muckypup said:
the problem with taxation is that it abdicates personal responsibility to the state creating state dependency to provide thus limiting personal choice. State policy making in main areas such as education, economic policy and judicial policy is closed off to public input and transperancy.

Taxation doesn't abdicate personal responsibility; it moves it from an idividualised market based economic space, to a socialised democratically underpinned political one. The democratic underpinnings need to be constantly defended and promoted in order to maximise social responsibility.

Louis MacNeice
 
muckypup said:
the problem with taxation is that it abdicates personal responsibility to the state creating state dependency to provide thus limiting personal choice. State policy making in main areas such as education, economic policy and judicial policy is closed off to public input and transperancy.

In particular education, there are many many criticisms that our educational intuitions do not create thinkers but, through the practice of teaching by rote, create unquestioning cogs who merely provide a function in the corporate sense.

In other words Humanity is commodified into another exploitable unquestioning resource.

Another area is that of health care which is primarily structured to treat symptoms once they occur thereby profiting the pharmaceuticals as opposed to a health care system which attempts perseveres human health.

There are many such examples which illustrate how, a centralised state tax system plays a fundamental role in restricting our freedom to achieve our fullest potential as humans.

Is that an argument for anarchism of one sort or another, or for free-market capitalism? I'm sort of assuming the latter in what I say below so apologies if I've misconstrued your argument, although if you're arguing for the former I've a whole raft of questions about how that might work...

This notion that taxation is 'abdicating personal responsibility to the state' is a handy slogan, but it doesn't seem to have much meaning in the real world. Even if you believe in the state playing the Gladstonian 'nightwatchman' role that London Boy suggests, there are still functions that only the state can adequately perform. I don't want to live in a world of private armies and police forces. At the very least, virtually everyone accepts that the responsibility for defence and the like has to be turned over to government, and few see that as an abdication of personal responsibility. Indeed, many would argue that it's the reverse: paying the taxes for government to perform those functions is an act of citizenship, of participation in society.

In terms of education and healthcare, the involvement of the state has led to a great widening of access. Of course it isn't perfect - schools are far too geared towards getting children through exams, for example, rather than giving a rounded education - but at least people do get access to some education. Nor can I see any reason why a private education system would deliver any more rounded an education than any other. In terms of healthcare, again, the state system is not perfect, but the only current alternaitve is the marketised system they have in the States, where 45 million people don't have access to it. No thanks: I'll take the NHS, warts and all.

So no, I'm not convinced that a 'state tax system' is greatly restrictive of human potential. It carries dangers, I grant, of squeezing people into one-size-fits-all services, but that's better than no services at all, which is often the alternative. Plus, there are some things that are best done by a single entity, which might as well be state run.
 
The 400 figure was from a doc outdated doc on the hard drive, it was'nt sourced so i quickly linked to treasury PDF, i saw the figure was larger, but did'nt think it was worth mentioning, which is my "on and on" meaning as the debt increases. The "good returns" bit, no im not confusing it with the futures market, by good returns im talking about interest to pay, good as in better than you and i can get. My "rubbish" about " never having the money to pay back" here im saying that the debt is basically unpayable.So yeah im not the most articulate of persons, and obviously am not as knowledgeable as yourself (im not being sarcastic), as i previoiusly said im still trying to figure it all out! and i dont use wiki, for anything, dont worry im not one of those Rothchild/lizards conspiritorial freaks. good blog by the way, cheers for the link
 
Louis MacNeice said:
Taxation doesn't abdicate personal responsibility; it moves it from an idividualised market based economic space, to a socialised democratically underpinned political one. The democratic underpinnings need to be constantly defended and promoted in order to maximise social responsibility.

Louis MacNeice

Taxation is the key tool in abdication of personal responsibility.

As for defending the 'democratic underpinning', its hard to defend what never was there, additionally our taxation pays for a police force (and army) which will only too willingly keep us at bay from any attempt to implement democracy.
 
poster342002 said:
A lot of us have experienced poor services directly. A substantial number of us in the poorer end of the spectrum, for a start. The daily mail occasionally makes noises for it's own reasons - but it doesn't invalidate the original complaint.

But there have been examples on this thread of where services have improved, but (as yet) no examples of where services have got worse..

The only example quoted is the bins being collected every 2 weeks not one, but this is a recycling issue, not a service one.
 
Jografer said:
But there have been examples on this thread of where services have improved, but (as yet) no examples of where services have got worse..

The only example quoted is the bins being collected every 2 weeks not one, but this is a recycling issue, not a service one.

Police who never come out
Ambulance services not effective enough
Air ambulance having to rely on charity
Street cleaning cut back
Libraries being decimatedin some boroughs
Short term finance for long term problems (ie sure start and other similar initiatives)
Dirty hospitals
Public transport in a mess

Its not just bins you know.
 
Riq Quintano said:
The 400 figure was from a doc outdated doc on the hard drive, it was'nt sourced so i quickly linked to treasury PDF, i saw the figure was larger, but did'nt think it was worth mentioning, which is my "on and on" meaning as the debt increases.
Fair enough
Riq Quintano said:
The "good returns" bit, no im not confusing it with the futures market, by good returns im talking about interest to pay, good as in better than you and i can get.
Ah, you mean the UK Govt's debt rating allows it to borrow cheaply rather than the interest that buyers of the debt receive is "above market"
Riq Quintano said:
My "rubbish" about " never having the money to pay back" here im saying that the debt is basically unpayable.
Mrs T redeemed a shedful (60-70%+?) of debt during her regime. I remember when the UK Gilts prices in the back of the broadsheets used to run to half a page, now there are what, 20 odd gilts in issue?
Riq Quintano said:
. . . good blog by the way, cheers for the link
Clearly you are a person of outstanding musical taste :D
 
A Dashing Blade said:
Riq Quintano said:
with a national debt of over £400 Billion , (thats not a typo),
No, it's an error,according to your own links it's £535.4bn. (page 3). Please don't link to stuff you havn't read.
£535.4bn is 'over £400 Billion'.
:confused:
 
KeyboardJockey said:
I can give a moral reason why this should be so.

If you are in the position where you can contribute more and it doesnt send you into penury then you should do so because we are all interconnected in some way.

Those who are rich or have been fortunate have a moral obligation to help those who are not fortunate or rich.

A world of total selfishness benefits nobody and rebounds on the selfish as they are constantly on guard for people who they have shafted coming to get them.

Everyone owes society some form of service because we all benefit whether it be the rich paying more taxes or the able bodied unemployed doing positive stuff for their communities.

Ancient communties left a corner of fields for those who had no food which was a way of acknowledging that whatever our individual status we are connected.

Leviticus 19.9 says:
'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest.

It was a discouragement against graspingly squeezing every resource for personal gain at the expense of others.
Yep!
:)
 
muckypup said:
Taxation is the key tool in abdication of personal responsibility.

As for defending the 'democratic underpinning', its hard to defend what never was there, additionally our taxation pays for a police force (and army) which will only too willingly keep us at bay from any attempt to implement democracy.

Just repeating it doesn't make it true; hint personal responsibility can and is exercised in discussion and voting.

Also just because the democratic underpinnings of public services have never been adequate in this country doesn't justify a no tax stance; indeed they needn't be linked.

Louis MacNeice
 
Louis MacNeice said:
. . . hint personal responsibility can and is exercised in discussion and voting.
Never (ok, very rarely and that was 25 years ago) voted and, imo, a committee of more than 2 has too many members, where that leave me? :confused: :D
 
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