Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
Crispy said:
consultants, middle management, and gadgets
Where's our money gone Gordon?
- Thread starter KeyboardJockey
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consultants, middle management, and gadgets
Orang Utan
Maybe I like the misery
Yeah, I'm OK!Bob Marleys Dad said:How so? Oh hang on, don't tell me, you live in London where there's public transport?
I live on rural coastland, 40 miles from my job and in the last year fuel price rises have taken all my spare cash but hey, I'll console myself with the thought that you're ok in London.
And yes, I'd love to know where the tax money goes too.
Oh and the hospital in my area is, for the most part, shit and the satellite ones that were good have been shut down.
But you're ok, yeah?
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Luther Blissett said:
I'd add overpriced substandard IT contracts as well as that.
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
Nobody likes EDS, do they 
£456 million wasted on a Child Support system that doesn't work
Then there's 'workfare for single moms' whilst not seeming to have no strategy for finding non-maintenance paying single-daddies work.
Already part of the MOD has been split up, following 'the American Model' - first an agency is formed, then it is sold off to (not always, but more often than not) American corporations. Part of the UK's Military Research & Development has been sold to the US Carlyle Group since Blair took power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QinetiQ
The American Model won't affect SIS though (Security Services MI5, MI6) - instead, private corporations that offer terrorism risk assessment, hostage negotiation, and surveillance are gaining ground in the UK and gaining more business on the back of 7/7 (e.g.Inkerman Group). Instead of using our existing police force, private security firms are now popular in corporate circles. Private security firms have been used recently by two companies who are riding roughshod over political processes and the rule of law (npower, agrexco) *Luther waves cheerily to the Inkerman 'watchers'*.
Basically, this looks to be the way the Govt. is heading - following the American model and breaking up state-run institutions - the Military, the Prisons, the Psychiatric Hospitals, as well as Hospitals, Clinics and Supermarket-style General Practioners (eg. ASDA GPs)
Further worries are that if we allow the State to implement high-tech consumer solutions, derived from obscure think-tankers who have quiet links to various corporations, when the reality that the problems are mainly sociological and can only be solved by people working with and caring for other people, then the State is wasting the taxes given to it by it's citizens and acting as a sales conduit for coroporate business, rather than administering to it's citizens' needs.
We don't need expensive thinktanks or high-tech gadgets (although a new rail system would be nice, ta very much) - we have citizens who are quite capable of suggesting workable solutions at a fraction of the cost.
£456 million wasted on a Child Support system that doesn't work
Then there's 'workfare for single moms' whilst not seeming to have no strategy for finding non-maintenance paying single-daddies work.
Already part of the MOD has been split up, following 'the American Model' - first an agency is formed, then it is sold off to (not always, but more often than not) American corporations. Part of the UK's Military Research & Development has been sold to the US Carlyle Group since Blair took power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QinetiQ
The American Model won't affect SIS though (Security Services MI5, MI6) - instead, private corporations that offer terrorism risk assessment, hostage negotiation, and surveillance are gaining ground in the UK and gaining more business on the back of 7/7 (e.g.Inkerman Group). Instead of using our existing police force, private security firms are now popular in corporate circles. Private security firms have been used recently by two companies who are riding roughshod over political processes and the rule of law (npower, agrexco) *Luther waves cheerily to the Inkerman 'watchers'*.
Basically, this looks to be the way the Govt. is heading - following the American model and breaking up state-run institutions - the Military, the Prisons, the Psychiatric Hospitals, as well as Hospitals, Clinics and Supermarket-style General Practioners (eg. ASDA GPs)
Further worries are that if we allow the State to implement high-tech consumer solutions, derived from obscure think-tankers who have quiet links to various corporations, when the reality that the problems are mainly sociological and can only be solved by people working with and caring for other people, then the State is wasting the taxes given to it by it's citizens and acting as a sales conduit for coroporate business, rather than administering to it's citizens' needs.
We don't need expensive thinktanks or high-tech gadgets (although a new rail system would be nice, ta very much) - we have citizens who are quite capable of suggesting workable solutions at a fraction of the cost.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
A well thought out finely supported argument i.e. not even a rumour of financial analysis. Why bother ?KeyboardJockey said:
If you want a bullshit generalisation; sure, I also want European levels of social provision at USA levels of taxation - and around election time, one or other of the two parties will intimate they can deliver that. And people like you will then believe its possible, and we'll have more threads like this based on that vacuous fallacy.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
London_Calling said:
I don't mind EU levels of taxation provided I get EU levels of service. A Spanish friend pays about 250 per annum council tax and gets her bins emptied three times a week a lot of average brits are paying £1000+ and getting lousy fortnightly collections? Who's pocketing the excess? What is wrong is where we pay excessive taxation for the amount of services we get back from the state. Taxes masquarading as 'green initiatives' such as excessive residents parking charges also drain money from the citizen into an amorphous pit.
The fact is we pay loads and get very little in return either for ourselves or our neighbours or our communties.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
Look, an economic miracle !KeyboardJockey said:
You'd almost think they'd be a reaction among politicians across the world to such a fine thing as it would guarantee re-election.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
London_Calling said:
Oh wonderful sarcasm
I'm not looking for economic miracles only for value for money. It seems more and more these days that the more yo pay the less you get. We seem to have become a society where there are low income and lower middle income earners who pay for the bulk of the country whilst supporting a sponging upper class who cheat on their taxes at one end of the scale and dole bludgers* at the other.
I pay for a health service dental service which I can't use because I'm not a doley while land that could be used for social housing is sold off to city parasites which in turn lines the pockets of bent councillors.
* by dole bludgers I mean the professional claimants of which I'm familiar with quite a few NOT those who have genuine needs.
Aye, because there's no corruption between Spanish councillors and developers at all is there? Not a sausage, apart from massive scams like this of course http://www.theolivepress.es/2007/06...developer-what-happened-in-alhama-de-granada/
Do you really believe this oversimplified guff that you're writing KJ?
Do you really believe this oversimplified guff that you're writing KJ?
The same happens nearly everywhere. It's the duff oversimplifications and ludicrous stereotypes that I object to - fat cat capitalists vs dole scroungers and the like. And using silly comparisons, such as the number of rubbish colllections against another country's 'council tax' bill, doesn't exactly hint at deeper level thinking or someone not trying to make a cheap smartarse point.
Well in Brazil, it's only approx £100 a year on council fees and they'll take your rubbish away immediately. And in India you can hire a whole family of street urchins to manage your refuse collection for little more than the price of the FT and bag of scampi fries. Or something.
Britain's gots flaws and unfortunately 'we've got it so hard here' moaning nonsense is one of them. The sheer number of people trying to make it over here suggests tthat our standard of life ain't too bad.
Well in Brazil, it's only approx £100 a year on council fees and they'll take your rubbish away immediately. And in India you can hire a whole family of street urchins to manage your refuse collection for little more than the price of the FT and bag of scampi fries. Or something.
Britain's gots flaws and unfortunately 'we've got it so hard here' moaning nonsense is one of them. The sheer number of people trying to make it over here suggests tthat our standard of life ain't too bad.
_angel_
.
tarannau said:
Nobodies comparing UK to a third world country, I don't think. But when you compare us overall to another well off country, the quality of life and cost of living issues are right to be raised. As is the widening gap between rich and poor and our shocking child poverty rate.
And as another poster said, when you're on the minimum wage/ low waged, the proportion of money that gets taken off in tax and NI seems disproportiantely high.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
But what do you expect when the depth of your analysis is what your mate in Spain pays to get his bins emptied ?KeyboardJockey said:Oh wonderful sarcasm
I'm not looking for economic miracles only for value for money.
Init.tarannau said:
It's a version of the same ignorant game Cameron will play vs. Brown and, actually, all oppositions play vs. all parties in power; lies, damned lies and yada, yada.
KeyboardJockey said:
Oh dear, been at the Daily Mail again have we..
... my Dad had to use the NHS recently, and they were great. NHS might not be perfect, but it's not bad, and shed loads better than most european countries. (had to use an italian hospital couple of years ago, awful...)
All this country going to the dogs is just bollocks... IMHO of course..
_angel_ said:
but the first £70 odd per week is tax free, then 20p in £ plus NI, so not sure how this is disproportionate... the whole thing about the poll tax and why it was kicked out is that brits are used to progressive taxation, more you earn more you pay.
& if you are on low income there are tax credits & housing/ council tax benefits ???
bmd
Island in the stream.
Jografer said:
What about the basic rate of income tax? How come we all have to pay 22% until 40k? There used to be a fairer system. Of course, it's hysterical Daily Mail reading nonsense to suggest that but afaics, so far in this thread it has been KJ saying what pisses him off and others saying what pisses them off about what he's been saying, no actual facts to refute it, despite that being levelled against him.
It's like the fucking drugs forum in here!
London Boy
New Member
The trouble with Labour's programme of public services is that it is meant to give the appearence of being cost effective, less bureaucratic and more choice centred for the consumer market of public services.
Sadly it's a failed and half hearted attempt.
What we need is real privatisation, real market freedom and a true system of free market capitalism that has so far not existed in Britain or many countries around the world for that matter.
I would like to see a politician or any public figure for that matter who would have the guts to advocate for a real system of liberty and freedom. One where the state is reduced to that of a nightwatchman and only deals with national defence and internal justice and policing.
All VAT and council taxes should be abolished, along with corporation taxes and we should only opt for a very low flat rate tax system that is equal across the board regardless of a taxpayers income.
Health services, education, social security should be freed from state control and should be run by private firms. State control over consumer choice such as the immoral prohibition against banned drugs should be abolished and instead all drugs (from tobacco, alcohol and cannabis all the way up to crack and heroin) should be completely legalised and traded in a free market system. Police powers need to be reduced etc, etc, etc....
Sadly I feel this is something that is a long way off, given the current political climate for a more intrusive and powerful state and authoritarian politics in general.
Sadly it's a failed and half hearted attempt.
What we need is real privatisation, real market freedom and a true system of free market capitalism that has so far not existed in Britain or many countries around the world for that matter.
I would like to see a politician or any public figure for that matter who would have the guts to advocate for a real system of liberty and freedom. One where the state is reduced to that of a nightwatchman and only deals with national defence and internal justice and policing.
All VAT and council taxes should be abolished, along with corporation taxes and we should only opt for a very low flat rate tax system that is equal across the board regardless of a taxpayers income.
Health services, education, social security should be freed from state control and should be run by private firms. State control over consumer choice such as the immoral prohibition against banned drugs should be abolished and instead all drugs (from tobacco, alcohol and cannabis all the way up to crack and heroin) should be completely legalised and traded in a free market system. Police powers need to be reduced etc, etc, etc....
Sadly I feel this is something that is a long way off, given the current political climate for a more intrusive and powerful state and authoritarian politics in general.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
I think BMD is saying that because the OP made an observation/comment, people are supposed to come in and refute it with detailed analysis.
It can actually only work in the reverse, otherwise we'd be here all day devoting time answering any and all old guff.
It can actually only work in the reverse, otherwise we'd be here all day devoting time answering any and all old guff.
And the abolition of the 10% tax band will only make things worse for the low paid, especially those without children. If you earn less than £18K (or thereabouts) and don't have any kids, you'll be worse off. Apparently you can claim working tax credit or some such but, as with all benefits, many people won't claim it for a variety of reasons.
And it's a Labour goverment that is pushing this through (and yes I know it was Labour that introduced it, in the days when they were trying to look like they gave a fuck). And then of course there is the subsidising lowpaying employers aspect too.
And it's a Labour goverment that is pushing this through (and yes I know it was Labour that introduced it, in the days when they were trying to look like they gave a fuck). And then of course there is the subsidising lowpaying employers aspect too.
A Dashing Blade
Takes horses to water but can't make donkeys drink
No, it's an error,according to your own links it's £535.4bn. (page 3). Please don't link to stuff you havn't read.Riq Quintano said:
as you correctly imply, primary issuence gilt yields are set by an auction process, I don't understand your point about "promising good returns for investors at an agreed time in the future". Could you elaborate? (tbh, from your terminology, you seem to be confusing a bond with a future).Riq Quintano said:
You would be wise to research debt redemption during the 80's before coming out with this rubbish.Riq Quintano said:
er . . . no. Perhaps, again, you should read the links you posted. (Chap 3, starting page 9) . You could also research the definition of the term "duration" as it applys to page 3, however as this will prolly not appear in wiki, I suspect you won't.Riq Quintano said:
cf the "Money and Banking" thread for further discussion.Riq Quintano said:
London Boy said:
No industrial economy has ever come closer to that model than Britain in the 1860s and 1870s, the high point of Victorian laissez-faire. By the 1880s it had largely been ditched, for the simple and excellent reason that it didn't work.
You free-marketers have got it all arse about face: capitalism doesn't exist in spite of government: it exists because of it. It's no coincidence that the rise of capitalism has always gone hand in hand with a strengthening of the state and an extension of its scope. Markets only work (after a fashion) when they are regulated: leaving them to their own devices results in chaos.
People accuse the left of being ideological overly ideological, but IME there is no-one as dogmatic as a hardline free-marketer. Ideology is taken to be fact, and abstract theories from economics textbooks are parroted as if they were an accurate reflection of what goes on in the real world. The fact is that, whether or not you wish to accept it, the sort of unfettered capitalism you are advocating never has worked, does not work now and never, ever will.
e2a: Hayek, I presume...?
oneflewover
Following "The Tigers"
Up in here in East Leeds, St James hospital is twice the size it was. Next door is a brand new school. About a mile away is a huge 3 story doctors surgery/ clinic thing going up. The local primary to this is brand new. The secondary school is getting a full set of sports facilities, it has just had all new labs and language things. Not that I like it but, the A1/M1 link is about 10miles of new motorway and huge intersections. The monstrosity of its link roads are still growing.
This is just in my little area of East Leeds.
This is just in my little area of East Leeds.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
tarannau said:
I know about the corruption down there I've spoken to friends about it in Spain and seen stuff in the English language papers there. However, there is also corruption in the UK but it seems to be on a much subtler level. Maybe not passing of brown envelopes but the giving of plum jobs to ex councillors and officers who pass or are favourable to development with development companies or their associates after a discreet time period.
I can only really comment on what I observe and what I and people I trust observe.
We do appear to get shit service when compared to other EU nations of comparable income.
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