Where are the black anarchists?

[Chuck Wilson]

What word would you have used?

It seems to me to be the correct word for my intension, I'm not going to have my English dictated to be by some nazi.

eth·nic
adj.

Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.
Being a member of a particular ethnic group, especially belonging to a national group by heritage or culture but residing outside its national boundaries: ethnic Hungarians living in northern Serbia.
Of, relating to, or distinctive of members of such a group: ethnic restaurants; ethnic art.
Relating to a people not Christian or Jewish; heathen.

n.
A member of a particular ethnic group, especially one who maintains the language or customs of the group.

Iam not going to get all PC about your language .If you want to defend the use of the word 'ethnics' fine .You could have used the phrase ethnic minorities, no whites , blacks and asians. etc I am just pointing out the this is the term the far right use.You might want to say that you are reclaiming it from the far right , if you are then have a go at the word nigger as well.

 

[In Bloom]

Er, don't try and patronise black people.

 

[Epicurus]

Iam not going to get all PC about your language .If you want to defend the use of the word 'ethnics' fine .You could have used the phrase ethnic minorities, no whites , blacks and asians. etc I am just pointing out the this is the term the far right use.You might want to say that you are reclaiming it from the far right , if you are then have a go at the word nigger as well.

I'm not defending it I’m using it in the context it is meant, English is my second language and when I looked for a word that would encompass all groups not in the black or white camp the word ethnic seems to meet the needs, in the context I used the word it was correct, just for the record I would consider myself to come under the category of "Ethnic"

 

[Epicurus]

This is what you originally said. I'm not a hyper-activist by any means, so don't claim to know all of the people in Hackney, I simply pointed out that as someone living and working in my local community, which has a high proportion of black people, I'd not come across any black anarchists. That's my experience, no judgement implied in that.

I work at my local sixth form college, 90% of the students are 'BME' (their statistics for OFSTED), and I'm the only white person in my department, it's only 10 minutes up the road so I very much consider it a part of my local community, I don't determine community by ethnicity like you seem to.

With Hackney Independent, I've gone and done surveys/newsletter drops, and recently canvassing around Haggerston and Hoxton, there are a large number of black (and Turkish, Vietnamese, etc.) people opening their doors, but that's not reflected in the make-up of HI. I'd be interested in discussing why that happens, most of HI are male as well, but I don't think cajoling me for not being involved in a number of "Predominantly Black" projects is very helpful is it? As a white person, I reckon it'd be fairly patronising for me to go out looking for them to get involved with depending on the circumstances.

I'm not saying that black people aren't active in libertarian communist politics, but white people working in their local communities, which include plenty of BME people, aren't necessarily finding them. I'd be very interested in hearing about the projects though

From the little I know about Hackney Independent it is a mainly white male group isn’t it? Maybe that’s your answer.

Have you considered how relevant your group is to local people if it doesn’t have a representative collection of people on it, maybe it is seen by some as more white people telling the others what is good for them? I don’t know

This is not a critic of Hackney Independent it could be any group.

 

[catch]

From the little I know about Hackney Independent it is a mainly white male group isn’t it? Maybe that’s your answer.

Have you considered how relevant your group is to local people if it doesn’t have a representative collection of people on it, maybe it is seen by some as more white people telling the others what is good for them? I don’t know

This is not a critic of Hackney Independent it could be any group.

Yes it is mainly white men, I said as much in my post, although not exclusively. But a "Predominantly Black" group isn't necessarily more representative is it? It might not have any muslims or jewish people in it for a start... As to "more white people..." I fucking hope not, and HI isn't a bunch of preaching lefties in the haranguing sense.

I'm neither the longest serving member of HI nor the most active, so I'll try to talk generally if possible. I'd be very worried if a local group was going 'round looking for Turkish, Nigerian and Black British members to make it more representative, it'd suggest swappie style tokenism.

On the same note, it's an important discussion as to why people don't get involved in this kind of politics, although most local groups we're talking about here are small - 5-20 people, so there's plenty of white people not involved either, most answers I think apply to any individual. TBH I think any organisation with 5-20 people would have a hard time being "representative" regardless of effort or their reasons for it.

I've seen a couple of big Turkish Stalinist meetings in Hackney, it may well be that Turkish activists gravitate to those organisations. I'm not going to go 'round leafletting Stalinist meetings of several hundred any time soon though.

To be honest, pretty much the only visible West African organisations I've come across in Hackney have been evangelical churches, not exactly a hotbed of libertarian socialism, and again not organisations I'm that interested in getting involved in. If you're happy to post/pm the names of those groups in Hackney I'd be interested in hearing about them.

 

[Epicurus]

Yes it is mainly white men, I said as much in my post, although not exclusively. But a "Predominantly Black" group isn't necessarily more representative is it? It might not have any muslims or jewish people in it for a start... As to "more white people..." I fucking hope not, and HI isn't a bunch of preaching lefties in the haranguing sense.

I'm neither the longest serving member of HI nor the most active, so I'll try to talk generally if possible. I'd be very worried if a local group was going 'round looking for Turkish, Nigerian and Black British members to make it more representative, it'd suggest swappie style tokenism.

On the same note, it's an important discussion as to why people don't get involved in this kind of politics, although most local groups we're talking about here are small - 5-20 people, so there's plenty of white people not involved either, most answers I think apply to any individual. TBH I think any organisation with 5-20 people would have a hard time being "representative" regardless of effort or their reasons for it.

I've seen a couple of big Turkish Stalinist meetings in Hackney, it may well be that Turkish activists gravitate to those organisations. I'm not going to go 'round leafletting Stalinist meetings of several hundred any time soon though.

To be honest, pretty much the only visible West African organisations I've come across in Hackney have been evangelical churches, not exactly a hotbed of libertarian socialism, and again not organisations I'm that interested in getting involved in. If you're happy to post/pm the names of those groups in Hackney I'd be interested in hearing about them.

I don’t know about Hackney the people I know all work on project in the Brixton/oval area.

I assume they work on predominantly “black” projects as there are plenty of white people fighting for other things.

Personally, I don’t think that there is a great deal of difference between the problems facing working class people be they black or white but as this thread was asking about Black’s I addressed my points to that.

I also know a number of female Anarchist, females make up about 52% of the population I suspect they are also out numbers but white male Anarchist about 100 to 1.

I don’t want to get into detail about the Hackney Independent I only mentioned it because of what you said about its make up, I have no idea what they do in there community.

 

[SeniorSbagliato]

Can't middle class people 'over-ride' their environment? You make class sound very mechanistic, almost genetic.

I'm sure they can but their psycological schemas will keep telling them that Capital is good because it has been the source of their comfort and really one shouldn't bite the hand that feeds. So when the chips are down they are always more likely so side with Capital, shurely that's one of the reasons the middle class was expanded, muddies the class politics water too.

 

[catch]

I don’t know about Hackney the people I know all work on project in the Brixton/oval area.

Oops, I thought you meant in Hackney, but now see that your post didn't actually say that. Fair enough!

 

[Epicurus]

Oops, I thought you meant in Hackney, but now see that your post didn't actually say that. Fair enough!

No problem
I think it is an interesting subject and I will make a point of asking a couple of black guys I know to see what they say.

 

[kasheem]

Iam not going to get all PC about your language .If you want to defend the use of the word 'ethnics' fine .You could have used the phrase ethnic minorities, no whites , blacks and asians. etc I am just pointing out the this is the term the far right use.You might want to say that you are reclaiming it from the far right , if you are then have a go at the word nigger as well.

Except for the fact that ethnics use the word ethnics to refer to themselves...

 

[LLETSA]

I hate pissing about with those smiley things.

 

[LLETSA]

Whereas you want to make it as narrow and exclusive as possible? And thus the middle class bigger?

I find that a bit weird... I mean if you use the sociological definitions then yeah the middle class is the majority of the population now, so if you think the working class should run society you'll be arguing for minority rule no? Which is a bit weird...

And it does seem to contrast with you saying this on another thread:

I've already said that, in strictly economic terms, I think that Kropotkin is correct. However, economic determinism (however you try to disguise it) always results in an over-simplification of life, as most people do not react to the world purely in terms of their economic status - although the latter does obviously have a decisive bearing on many situations.

And anyway-where do I say that I wish to restrict the definition of the working class to those who perform manual labour?

I don't accept that the loose definition that I gave in the thread on the other board-which I presume is what you're referring to- is making the category of working class 'as narrow and exclusive as possible.' For a start, I don't think that those who work in highly-paid professions, run their own businesses, or are in very well-paid middle and top management positions etc etc are the majority of the population. Nowhere near it, in fact. They are, quite definitely, the middle class though, and in more than just economic terms - and would consider themselves to be so. Those who work in the routine jobs to be found in retail and other services, manufacturing, are unemployed, etc etc and live in the inner-cities, modest suburbs and council estates (and what has succeeded them) easily outnumber them, and most do, if recent polls are to be believed, rightly regard themselves as working class.

There is an intermediate grouping which is also quite large, consisting of the not so highly-paid professionals - of which teachers are the most often cited examples on boards like this (wonder why....) While most of these people by no means have the kind of salaries that comfortably makes them a part of the middle class, their outlook is usually nonetheless middle class. Before somebody points to the increasing numbers of people from working class backgrounds who become teachers, it is my experience that most of these come to cultivate the middle class attitudes of their contemporaries at university and so on. This is the case for other people in this intermediate grouping to one degree or another, sometimes depending on the profession. Furthermore, it must be remembered that an individual's politics are not necessarily a reflection of the class they belong to.

The picture is further complicated by the fact that there are people in manual jobs who may actually be more highly-paid than teachers, social workers, health professionals etc etc who remain, in their outlooks firmly working class, as can, even, people from working class backgrounds who are self-employed.

In short, cultural factors inevitably have a bearing on class.

 

[LLETSA]

Except for the fact that ethnics use the word ethnics to refer to themselves...

And 'reds' to themselves....

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Except for the fact that ethnics use the word ethnics to refer to themselves...

Fact or your own view? What are ethnics kasheem or are you another one who has to look in a dictionary because English isn't your first language?

 

[kropotkin]

Lletsa- that was the most reasonable post I have seen yu make- I don't disagree with any of it.

 

[LLETSA]

Lletsa- that was the most reasonable post I have seen yu make- I don't disagree with any of it.

I'm really quite a reasonable kinda guy.

 

[Epicurus]

Fact or your own view? What are ethnics kasheem or are you another one who has to look in a dictionary because English isn't your first language?

Just out of interest how many languages do you speak and how many can you write it?
What do you mean by "another one who has to look in a dictionary ………….”
I'd have thought it was a good thing that people with English as a 2nd language do use a dictionary and spell checker it’s a shame so many British don’t as it make some posts impossible for people to read and understand when they spell words wrong, this is the Internet not some English club

Edited to say having read this post back it sounds/reads "angry" and isn't meant to be taken that way.

 

[Kidda]

Another good question

It was reading about a recent eviction in Birmingham that made me ask the question. It seems to be a question at least one of the participants was asking, in a round about way. Eviction report here: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/06/312893.html

PLENTY of working class anarchists involved in that and the Social Centre beforehand

 

[cockneyrebel]

LLETSA your definitions of class, outside the economic definitions, still seem very vague. The “quite large” section of people from the “intermediate” section for instance, I would say are working class, and a lot of them don’t meet the stereotypes you present. My mum for example is from a totally working class background (both economic and cultural) and became a primary school teacher. For a start she didn’t even go to uni but teacher training college (as many teachers do), but is still, in every sense of the word, working class. I imagine there are many other teachers from similar circumstances. Because if you say that the large majority of the “intermediate” section are middle class that is taking a large section out of the workers movement.

What about white collar workers like me who work in the council (and other office workers) and now days make up a huge section of the work force. Where does that section fit in?

Many people who are part of the working class don't necessarily see it that way, but does that mean they aren't part of the working class? Also many people who see themselves as part of the working class (like my grandad who is an out and out lumpen), aren't in any real political sense or collective sense, so what does that mean?

I think the last poll I saw done said that way over 70% of people saw themselves as working class though.

I don't accept that the loose definition that I gave in the thread on the other board-which I presume is what you're referring to- is making the category of working class 'as narrow and exclusive as possible.' For a start, I don't think that those who work in highly-paid professions, run their own businesses, or are in very well-paid middle and top management positions etc etc are the majority of the population. Nowhere near it, in fact. They are, quite definitely, the middle class though, and in more than just economic terms - and would consider themselves to be so. Those who work in the routine jobs to be found in retail and other services, manufacturing, are unemployed, etc etc and live in the inner-cities, modest suburbs and council estates (and what has succeeded them) easily outnumber them, and most do, if recent polls are to be believed, rightly regard themselves as working class.

Marx dealt with these kind of issues but in more definite way. The petty bourgeois, lumpen proletariat, labour aristocracy, professional caste etc all describe the layers you mention but in meaningful terms.

In reality there is a lot of flux. A lot of my mates at school who became self-employed have become the most anti-working class reactionaries I know, and I should think the impact of being part of the “petty bourgeoisie” that removes you from the working class has a lot to do with it. Indeed they are worse in their outlook than most “middle class” people I’ve met. But they'd still all see themselves as working class.

So do you agree with the kind of definitions that I’ve listed that Marx talks about or do you have different definitions that have any concrete meaning?

PS Epicurus for whatever reason you’re using it, the word “ethnics” is associated with the far-right. If you don’t want people to get the wrong idea then it’s probably best you use another term.

PPS Chuck how is the work down the docks going? Where does the kind of night shifts you do fit in to the class analyis? Petty bourgeois?

 

[sacx]

PLENTY of working class anarchists involved in that and the Social Centre beforehand

Wasn't suggesting otherwise Kidda

 

[Kidda]

Wasn't suggesting otherwise Kidda

Good or id knock ya out

 

[cockneyrebel]

Quite a few people in my work play Sudoku, a worrying middle class trend if you ask me.....

 

[Kidda]

we went to do some anti bnp leafleting in a very working class area of brum before the election and bumped into a load of kids who'd just been playing hurling what are they doing to our youngsters nowadays, it were games of Bulldog and cops n robbers were i was that age

 

[sacx]

Good or id knock ya out

Shame about the eviction. Hope you find somewhere else soon mate.

 

[Kidda]

Shame about the eviction. Hope you find somewhere else soon mate.

ah space is space innit

everyones safe

we'll pop up again soon, thats for sure

 

[cockneyrebel]

I remember "British Bulldog".....classic game.....

Death Can, now there was a brutal game, as was Tunnel of Death......

 

[blamblam]

Lletsa- that was the most reasonable post I have seen yu make- I don't disagree with any of it.

If you don't disagree with any of it, could you outline the differences between a working and middle class "outlook"?

Is the assumption that within these groups outlooks are homogenous, with no variation between differenct (sub)cultures/races, etc.?

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Just out of interest how many languages do you speak and how many can you write it?
What do you mean by "another one who has to look in a dictionary ………….”
I'd have thought it was a good thing that people with English as a 2nd language do use a dictionary and spell checker it’s a shame so many British don’t as it make some posts impossible for people to read and understand when they spell words wrong, this is the Internet not some English club

Edited to say having read this post back it sounds/reads "angry" and isn't meant to be taken that way.

Stop wingeing.

 

[kropotkin]

If you don't disagree with any of it, could you outline the differences between a working and middle class "outlook"?

Is the assumption that within these groups outlooks are homogenous, with no variation between differenct (sub)cultures/races, etc.?

I agree with it because he is just describing the world as it is- it wasn't a political post and had little to do with class as I understand it.

Those in top management positions and owners of small businesses are middle class.
These people have middle class outlook (undefined)
Those below them also have a middle class outlook (undefined) whilst not having the income to sustain the lifestyle comfortably.

Each individual's politics are influenced by, but semi-autonomous from their class.



It's just a striaght-up description of advertising sociological categories isn't it? And they evolved that class categorisation as it fits their requirements and maximises the marketing of commodities.

an ad-man would disagree with class-struggle class analysis as well

 

[cockneyrebel]

Those in top management positions and owners of small businesses are middle class.

I don't know if I'd agree with this. It's too fluffy. I think the definitions of the professional caste and petty bourgeois are better in describing top management and small business owners.

Also if you say a middle class outlook is undefined it is utterly meaningless and tells us nothing.