When will we have an anarcho-syndicalist utopia?

[chilango]

When capiatalism collapses...and we have to pick to pick up the pieces.












...or it could go all Mad Max.





50/50 really.

 

[butchersapron]

Sure, and if I understand it correctly, even Catalan (the language) was outlawed under Franco.

Yes, precisely because anarchism and radical forms of economic democracy had been able to take such a hold in the region (i.e it's not impossible) It had to be uprooted and exterminated for that capitalism you mentioned to 'flourish'.

 

[Shevek]

I dont know why most people think anarchism is impossible until capitalism collapses? Surely its worth building alternatives. Anarchism should be a global movement so arguments about different states trying to crush anarchism in one state should be obsolete. I don't understand why most people are so pessimistic about the chances for anarchism? I think it is a really interesting movement and could lead to great things if pushed. More people need to believe in it for it to work.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I dont know why most people think anarchism is impossible until capitalism collapses?

Because, by the very nature of what anrchism is, it would have to replace one or another pre-existing mode of organising society. Our hegemonic mode of organising at the moment is under capitalism (which, as has been explained to you, will go (and has gone to) any lengths to perpetuate itself. Therefore capitalism needs to collapse (or be collapsed) before an alternative ideology or ideologies can replace it.

Surely its worth building alternatives.

Of course.

Anarchism should be a global movement so arguments about different states trying to crush anarchism in one state should be obsolete.

That's wonderfully Utopian (in a "fluffy kitten" type way), but utterly unrealistic in terms of practical policy. Different states may require different solutions unique to the internal needs of that state's society, and you appear to forget that "human nature" tends to be competitive as well as cooperative.

I don't understand why most people are so pessimistic about the chances for anarchism? I think it is a really interesting movement and could lead to great things if pushed.

Many anarchists, especially when they've been such for a while, are realists. That doesn't mean we throw away our idealism, just that we target it at realistic aims rather than Utopian one-world pie in the sky.

More people need to believe in it for it to work.

It's not a frigging religion, you spoon. "Belief" is irrelevant.

 

[bluestreak]

Eh? Who are you referring to when you use the term 'Bolshevik'? The Stalinized Spanish CP were certainly not Bolsheviks Those seen largely as the closest to Trotsky, ie the POUM, fought with the CNT against the Stalinists. So who are these 'Bolsheviks'?

So I used the wrong subdivision of commie, it gets confusing. I got the jist of it right though FFS.

 

[bluestreak]

Because, by the very nature of what anrchism is, it would have to replace one or another pre-existing mode of organising society. Our hegemonic mode of organising at the moment is under capitalism (which, as has been explained to you, will go (and has gone to) any lengths to perpetuate itself. Therefore capitalism needs to collapse (or be collapsed) before an alternative ideology or ideologies can replace it.

Of course.

That's wonderfully Utopian (in a "fluffy kitten" type way), but utterly unrealistic in terms of practical policy. Different states may require different solutions unique to the internal needs of that state's society, and you appear to forget that "human nature" tends to be competitive as well as cooperative.

Many anarchists, especially when they've been such for a while, are realists. That doesn't mean we throw away our idealism, just that we target it at realistic aims rather than Utopian one-world pie in the sky.


It's not a frigging religion, you spoon. "Belief" is irrelevant.

Thanks VP, that pretty much sums it up.

 

[Random]

How can anarchism grow and thrive. I am inspired by the example of Spain in the 1930's.

Well mass anarchist organising in Spain began in the 1870s. If you want to reach a situation like Catalonia in 1936 in the UK it will probably take at least 60 years of similar hard work. The anarchists succeeded because they had useful ideas that helped people to organise and win struggles. If UK anarchists can do the same, then they will also be successful.

 

[Shevek]

If UK anarchists can do the same, then they will also be successful.

Thats what I am interested in, building an anarchist movement. I am sure it is possible it just takes a little imagination and a lot of hard work. Anarchism has to be relevant to peoples everyday lives. Thats why I am interested in building a union in my workplace

 

[bluestreak]

Go for it. Just don't expect people to suddenly say "oh what a good idea". You'll have a lot of work overcoming programming to get people to listen to what anarcism is and can offer, let alone to actually join in. Good luck.

 

[Barking_Mad]

when anarchists infiltrate all levels of capitalism, or when it collapses on itself and there are enough people to pick up the load.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

*starts infiltrating*

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well mass anarchist organising in Spain began in the 1870s. If you want to reach a situation like Catalonia in 1936 in the UK it will probably take at least 60 years of similar hard work. The anarchists succeeded because they had useful ideas that helped people to organise and win struggles. If UK anarchists can do the same, then they will also be successful.

We do, of course, need to bear in mind that Spain's socio-economic and socio-political situations over those 60 years contributed to it actually attaining "critical mass" in terms of an impetus towards anarchism in a way that the UK and many other more "developed" nations had experienced a lot earlier on.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Go for it. Just don't expect people to suddenly say "oh what a good idea". You'll have a lot of work overcoming programming to get people to listen to what anarcism is and can offer, let alone to actually join in. Good luck.

Yup, because we're programmed to take the path of least resistance, the easy ride, to shrug and think "that's someone else's problem", rather than doing for ourselves or even daring to think that we can do stuff for ourselves.

 

[Blagsta]

Well I have not read 'Homage to Catalonia' but I have spent quite a lot of time in Catalonia recently and can report that it is an area of Spain which is imbued with capitalist market driven business and enterprise like no other in the rest of Spain. So whatever a 'Homage to Catalonia' contains, anarchism has definately not taken root in Catalonia.

last time I was in Barcelona (about 18 months ago), there were plenty of CNT stickers around

and evidence of community activism