* please allow for speech recognition errors.
In Bloom said:
I don't think it's even a matter of "inculcating" anything into anybody. People aren't stupid, anybody with a lick of common sense knows that they don't want to drink poisoned water. It's not such an issue for people who live hundreds or even thousands of miles away from that factory, and can afford a clean drinking supply whereever they are, though, which is why they don't mind doing it.
Similarly, if people are working to produce food (or whathaveyou) surely having food is motivation enough to produce it? I assume you don't expect to be paid to do housework in your own home, Gmarthews (unless you're a lot younger than I'd have thought)?
"common sense". The ideology of a society, any society, is not just arrived at by individuals deductions. I'm thinking about the way children obtain value systems. I am sure within the immediate aftermath of the destruction of the current social relations, for those born amongst capitalism to various degrees "the muck of ages" will remain.
The point I'm trying to make to Matthews is, when you look at how illogical many of the beliefs under capitalism, how insane some are, and yet still believed, how much easier will it be to have a rational "common sense" ideology under Socialism. Matthew is mocking altruism, but altruism will be far more prevalent because it is material basis is self interest, but people may carry out altruism almost unconscious of the material benefits of self-interest, because it is the "commonsense", the ideology of the epoch.
Gmarthews said:
Of course, as you say any tribe will have a set of rules to keep the tribe whole, we are just updating these rules. Still I am still interested in what freedoms we would still have? Also I think that once we organise power generation the rest will follow on quite naturally. The empowerment of people tends to ensure that the best of outcomes results.
Would you have limits on pollution? What incentive would that factory have?
I think what I've said about the ideology, the commonsense, is very important. This shapes how people interact on a day-to-day basis without necessarily having to analyse every pro and con of an action. Actions are carried out unconsciously upon the accepted wisdom WHICH HAS BEEN WITNESSED TO BEAR FRUIT.
I think this is what Hegel was saying about societies. Slave society, feudal society, capitalism, all have periods of support because they are able to provide for human needs in a way previous societies were unable to. Not only on able to, capitalism was able to provide for society using technologies and methods that feudal society barred from use. Feudal society became a Fetter upon how human beings could satisfy their needs. Likewise, I don't believe after a social revolution, that removes the current minority ruling class and replaces it with democracy, everyone will just accept the new commonsense ideology. People will only accept it and be keen to imbue it into their offspring if socialist society is seen to be liberating of human potential.
Socialist Society will liberate the productive potential of human society, and perhaps more importantly reduced the consumption of human society, for production will not be based upon producing profits for a minority but providing for the needs of the majority. Who will decide what this need is? The majority.
Immediately after the revolution there still be capitalist forces. These will not enjoy the right to the freedom to undermine socialism, and would have this limit of freedom imposed upon them by workers militias etc, the majority, but this would be reduced over time as the new commonsense ideology became imbued. Likewise, individuals may cling to their 4x4's etc, and the majority may have to impose on some individuals are socialised transport system, but this will be imposed by the Democratic majority, rather than the economic elite. How it will be imposed will be decided by the majority.
