When even a twat like Ken Loach starts to realise.

[treelover]

I was waiting for that, yes of course many of the migrants to the US were socialists, anarchists, agitators, etc, but most weren't and they were there to make money for the US economy.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It may not just have been the migrants, of course. And it may have been that those who resented the migrants were not the greatest friends of the socialist cause.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Actually historically the high point of socialist sentiment in the US was probably coincident with the high point of immigration.

And the IWW et al recognised that the bosses were using "race" divisions and immigrant-fear to divide and rule at the time. I was just trying to find some of the cartoons, actually.

 

[urbanrevolt]

1 That is just right wing nonsense. Who do you think benefits most from supporting the so called right of people to live where they like?????????

2 You clearly havent thought that through. Do you seriously imagine that Gangmasters and Unemployment would disappear if we all supported free market policies on migration?

3 Yes. But the minority of people who migrate are not more important than the majority who dont.

4 Shame. You ask some good questions at times.

In answer to 1. the answer is the working class internationally. Why? Domestically the answer is easy: Immigration controls don't so much stop people migrating as treat those who do manage to migrate as an underclass. Restrictions on immigration mean that certain people are forced to work illegally- meaning that is far harder to organise a collective working response.
Internationally it is slightly more complex but only slightly- sure there is a massive shortage of skilled labour in many poor countries but this is not primarily because of emigration it is primarily because of forced underdevelopment and imposition of unfair trade- systemised robbery. Emigration may work it worse in some cicrcumstances but what is the solution? Make poor countries virtual prison camps?

If capitalists couldn't artificially impose all these corals, these racist divisions, these borders and nation states then they would find it far harder to keep the current international order of oppression.

2) Gang masters are hugely facilitated by border controls - getting rid of them won't destroy all exploitation of course but would be a step in the right direction.

3) See answer to 1)-plus does my partner having emigrated from Ethiopia make life worse for people there in general? No. Many people don't want to emigrate- those who want to fight for a better society there or contribute to programs such as anurese teacher firend I have. Many nevertheless are forced to- becuas eof international capitlaism and governsments like ours that force privatisation and low commodity prices whilst donating military aid and turning a blind eye to massive repression including thousands shot in cold blodd and more than 40 000 imprisoned in my partener's country's case

4) I sympathise with people not wanting to bother with this debate but it's still worth a go. Many ordinary working class people and decent activists can be won round even if some on these boards can't

 

[audiotech]

However, I am no Baldwinite!

..but you follow some Baldwinisms?

Land and Freedom is arguably Loach's masterpiece. Loach produces a remarkable portrayal of revolution in the film. Not only is the film about the fight against fascism, but also about settling the account with Stalinism.

Now, the self-confessed, political authoritarian, baldwin don't like that.

 

[YoursTruly]

How can one have worldwide socialism on all four corners of the planet when there is borders?

From east to west, if I want socialism, communism or some theological order like Islam, then nation states must be destroyed.

Capitalism doesn't rule the entire world...it's doesn't rule supreme in every country.

I'd rather have a world of nation states with different political and idealogical systems, than a world without nation states, wide open to one system ruling supreme on every corner of the planet.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Ken Loach has more intelligence and humanity in his arse farts than your entire output here.

You're so right, ed.

 

[Wilf]

Lefties of all stripes need to do a job of separating out various things here. I don't like the way that bosses use migrants (and even illegals) to impose a lower wage economy and undermine union agreements. Its simply the people end of WTO policies. But I don't respond to it by becoming anti-migration or wandering off in the direction of 'jobs for brits'.

Surely, there's an old fashioned answer here - solidarity. If migrants settle in this country: talk to them, get them to join a union - and undermine the very things that the bosses want to use them for. If migrants come over here on temporary contracts - do exactly the fucking same. It might be harder - but what's the alternative?

 

[nino_savatte]

When even a twat like Ken Loach starts to realise their is something wrong with supporting free market policies on migration. Perhaps, just perhaps the Middle Class Liberal Left will start to slowly move away from their ridiculous stated views on immigration.
And it looks like he is,as the article in yesterdays Observer makes clear.
About time too!
Supporting free market policies on Immigration is indefensible for anyone who calls themselves a Socialist.

Nutter. Loach has more principles in his pinky than you have in your entire body.

 

[nino_savatte]

Which is at least a step in the right direction.
For years the Liberal Left have by and large ignored the devastating consequences of supporting mass migration.
If even somebody like Ken Loach is starting to question that it can only be a good thing.

FFS, he's not saying anything of the sort. He certainly isn't supporting your position that's for sure.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Lefties of all stripes need to do a job of separating out various things here. I don't like the way that bosses use migrants (and even illegals) to impose a lower wage economy and undermine union agreements. Its simply the people end of WTO policies. But I don't respond to it by becoming anti-migration or wandering off in the direction of 'jobs for brits'.

Surely, there's an old fashioned answer here - solidarity. If migrants settle in this country: talk to them, get them to join a union - and undermine the very things that the bosses want to use them for. If migrants come over here on temporary contracts - do exactly the fucking same. It might be harder - but what's the alternative?

Excellent post.

I certainly quite want to see Loach's new film- sounds good to me. I had gone off him a bit after Ladybird, Ladybird which I loved but the Wind that Shakes the Barley was pretty good.

Not sure about his politics in general but all his statements in the bit quoted are good and pro-migrant as far as I can tell and pro-trade union.

 

[nino_savatte]

Which shows that he is still a bit confused on the issue.
But mass migration legal or illegal is not something that i think any rational person should support from a left wing point of view.

How does it show that he is "confused" on the issue? If anything, the article shows you to be a complete buffoon who lacks the ability to read and to comprehend.

I see you're still trying to push the auld "mass migration" canard.

 

[Combustible]

Actually historically the high point of socialist sentiment in the US was probably coincident with the high point of immigration.

And the areas most hostile to socialist thought are generally in the South and Mid-West, areas without significant immigration.

 

[tbaldwin]

In answer to 1. the answer is the working class internationally.

Urbanrevolt so you are seriously trying to say that the people who benefit most from immigration are the international working class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is almost surreal.

You support the rights of skilled workers from poorer nations to come to countries like the UK.
I support reparations to developing nations and international labour rules on multinational companies.

You support the idea that people should flock to where the money or the work is.

I support the idea that wealth should be shared around the world.

In your Liberal world of 'Open Borders' what happens to the people left behind in poorer nations with no Doctors,no Nurses,no Teachers,no Engineers.????????

 

[tbaldwin]

How does it show that he is "confused" on the issue? If anything, the article shows you to be a complete buffoon who lacks the ability to read and to comprehend.

I see you're still trying to push the auld "mass migration" canard.

1 I didnt realise the article mentioned me!
2 Yes.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Urbanrevolt so you are seriously trying to say that the people who benefit most from immigration are the international working class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is almost surreal.

You support the rights of skilled workers from poorer nations to come to countries like the UK.
I support reparations to developing nations and international labour rules on multinational companies.

You support the idea that people should flock to where the money or the work is.

I support the idea that wealth should be shared around the world.

In your Liberal world of 'Open Borders' what happens to the people left behind in poorer nations with no Doctors,no Nurses,no Teachers,no Engineers.????????

I am beginning to sympathise with those who think you're not worth debating.

You clearly haven't read my post AT ALL.

I am for solidairty between workers- whatever their status.

You come upwith an insult word Liberal when it is quite claer from anyone reading ay of my posts on here that I am arguing for class based militancy and socilaist politics but you indulge in mindless insults without bothering to read any points.

Do you support tightening immigration controls? Yes or no? Will you ever answer this question?

You come out with crap like I support the idea people should flock to where the money is- I never said that so you're clearly lying.

If anything I sympathise with those who stay to fight for better services in poorer countries like my friend who was a nurse teacher who voewd to always stay in Ethiopia- what happened? His sister got HIV and would die if he didn't go abroad to work.

Or another friend who would have died if he didn't leave. What's your solution? Tighten border controls? Border controls that are put in place by capitalism not so much to stop migration but to create divisions in the working class between legal and 'illegal'.

But you refuse to answer that question.

You say you want to share the wealth as if that is opposed to what I say. You want to share the wealth- all very good and fine as a sentiment but without the working class organised to fight for it an empty pious sentiment- in fact almost liberal.

Same for "I support reparations to developing nations and international labour rules on multinational companies."

So you support slightly fairer exploitation? I support workers being in charge of their own affairs not slightly fairer rules for mulitnationals- but yeah sure fight for them. You won't get them through lobbying- you'll need a militant class struggle. And if we can become strong enough to tame the multinationals we can become strong enough to rule our own affairs. But racist and nationalistic divisions don't help that fight they play straight into the hands of the bourgeois who carved up the world in its current borders. If we want a better world fight for it

But who are our allies in this fight? Migrant workers with connections to the home country are often the best fighters for this as well as the organised working class in the countries. But when trade unionists are threateend and have to go into hiding- what's your solution? Do you have one?

Are you going to answer any of the questions-

What's your solution? Tighten border controls?

 

[brasicritique]

Loach is the hampstead social elitists socialist no wonder certain sections of urban love him as for his observer article and this thread zzzzzz
Anyway he votes new labour like you baldwin

 

[JoePolitix]

I thought he was in Respect?

 

[brasicritique]

He may be in respect but that does not mean that a respect candidate will stand in his area -hence new labour loach. There's kids on streets with guns and yet his latest film is on the subject matter close to durutis heart; immigration what a suprise

 

[urbanrevolt]

There's kids on streets with guns and yet his latest film is on the subject matter close to durutis heart; immigration what a suprise

yeah right because attacking immigrants is really going to help solve the problem of kids on the streets with guns

I'm not completely sure what the solution is to crime or young people with guns but I suspect having a future you can believe in, better facilities, some purpose in life, discipline learnt out of respect for yourself as well as others all have a role to play. This means revitalising working class communities through class struggle militant politics- not dividing ourselves and playing off one section against another.

But of course it's much easier to indulge in tabloid politics and blame immigrants- either for the problems here or abroad.

Tbaldwin still no answer.

 

[tbaldwin]

Do you support tightening immigration controls? Yes or no? Will you ever answer this question?

I already have done on countless occassions. Yes.

 

[tbaldwin]

You say you want to share the wealth as if that is opposed to what I say. You want to share the wealth- all very good and fine as a sentiment but without the working class organised to fight for it an empty pious sentiment- in fact almost liberal.

Same for "I support reparations to developing nations and international labour rules on multinational companies."

So you support slightly fairer exploitation? I support workers being in charge of their own affairs not slightly fairer rules for mulitnationals- but yeah sure fight for them. You won't get them through lobbying- you'll need a militant class struggle. And if we can become strong enough to tame the multinationals we can become strong enough to rule our own affairs. But racist and nationalistic divisions don't help that fight they play straight into the hands of the bourgeois who carved up the world in its current borders. If we want a better world fight for it

But who are our allies in this fight? Migrant workers with connections to the home country are often the best fighters for this as well as the organised working class in the countries. But when trade unionists are threateend and have to go into hiding- what's your solution? Do you have one?

Are you going to answer any of the questions-

What's your solution? Tighten border controls?

Attacked for being almost Liberal. Looks like its shaping up to be a good day for me on urban......
Perhaps you think minging campbell wants to see International Labour rules and reparations to developing nations??
You think migrant workers are our allies in the battle against International Capitalism? Really? Do you not see any contradiction in that?

What about the people left behind? What about the people who need nursing care in African and Asian countries who see all their health proffessionals tempted by higher wages in the west? ARE YOU EVER GOING TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION?
Should we just welcome those migrants and leave people to die in the countries they came from?

 

[tbaldwin]

Loach is the hampstead social elitists socialist no wonder certain sections of urban love him as for his observer article and this thread zzzzzz
Anyway he votes new labour like you baldwin

That is way below the belt........

 

[Pigeon]

I am beginning to sympathise with those who think you're not worth debating.

You clearly haven't read my post AT ALL.

He diznae read anyone's posts at all. He just caricatures (poorly) anyone who doesn't advocate border controls (and the creation thereby of an illegally, super-exploitable, expendable, workforce) as "in favour of the free market",or similar tosh.

The lad's such a jackass that, having finally picked up from the Loach article that that's actually not the case, he argues that Loach is confused about immigration controls.

 

[tbaldwin]

Pigeon. Ive missed you.

 

[Pigeon]

Pigeon. Ive missed you.

Nearly as much as you've missed the fucking point of everything. Ever.

 

[Wilf]

What about the people left behind? What about the people who need nursing care in African and Asian countries who see all their health proffessionals tempted by higher wages in the west? ARE YOU EVER GOING TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION?

What a strange logic. Do you think that deficiencies in African health care are really the result of migrants leaving those countries? Migration is an effect of poverty - not a cause

Should we just welcome those migrants and leave people to die in the countries they came from?

Might be more productive to fight against neo-liberalism, WTO solutions etc. Again, you are victim blaming

 

[tbaldwin]

What a strange logic. Do you think that deficiencies in African health care are really the result of migrants leaving those countries? Migration is an effect of poverty - not a cause

Might be more productive to fight against neo-liberalism, WTO solutions etc. Again, you are victim blaming

1 I think its both.

2 How am i victim blaming?

 

[Wilf]

2 How am i victim blaming?

in suggesting that migrants who escape from poverty and oppression and come to this country are responsible for the deaths of those who remain. That certainly seems to be the logic of the final sentence of post 82.

 

[Pigeon]

That certainly seems to be the logic of the final sentence of post 82.

Typical LIBERAL SUPREMACIST bullshit.

Baldwin is not the slave of your bourgeois "logic". That's for the little people.