When did you last see a Bush partisan try to claim Iraq is a success?

[Bernie Gunther]

Well? Can anyone remember hearing any of the war-party claiming that their big idea is working out well?

I personally think the neo-cons have made a total abortion of whatever they were trying to do in Iraq. Our citizens are getting blown up and while it's just fine for Tony Blair to talk about the "need for sacrifice" I personally just don't quite see why it is in our interests to get blown up on behalf of these crooks.

Iraq itself is a fucking awful bloody shambles, thans to the wonders of digital photography and some of their brutish redneck torture freak buddies, US and to a certain extent the UK forces, demoralised by the obvious delusionary state of their corrupt and untrustworthy leaders, are in an impossible situation. Trying desperately to train up some hapless Iraqi stooges to get killed on their behalf so they can walk away from their mess and shift the blame for what happens next.

Iraq is a ghastly mess and we know exactly who is responsible for that mess.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Bernie! Where have you been? I read in the American press daily about how brilliantly operations are progressing in Iraq from pundits and politicians; however since the London bombings it has all turned to talk of "darkness" and "dimness" but the message remains "we fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" ... as if...

Are we going to hand over more of our civil liberties to Blair to prevent ourselves from being blown up, when its thanks to his instigating the war on terror that the bombs are going off on our own doorsteps? And not only that but a race war has been incited?

We need more democracy, not less.

 

[pbman]

We.

Iraq is a ghastly mess and we know exactly who is responsible for that mess.

commies and liberals and terroists.

But the death rate has gone way down since saddam was tossed, i guess you don't care about people dieing, as long as they do it quitely.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

commies and liberals and terroists.

But the death rate has gone way down since saddam was tossed, i guess you don't care about people dieing, as long as they do it quitely.

Every reputable source concludes that the death rate has gone up substantially since the invasion.

Particularly among Iraqi security force recruits.

 

[pbman]

Every reputable source concludes that the death rate has gone up substantially since the invasion.
.

lol

It ain't over till its over.

Last january you guys were walking around like someone shot your dog.......

 

[Bernie Gunther]

http://www.csis.org/features/iraq.cfm

It's a complete mess. You have jihadi maniacs mortaring pilgrims and suicide bombing civil service and police recruitment queues, you have a sunni nationalist guerilla war well into the stalemate stage. You have Iran laughing at you can collecting the prizes.

 

[pbman]

http://www.csis.org/features/iraq.cfm

Don't be so lazy, cut and past the relivant parts like i do.

I can't be arsed to plow throu all that blather.

 

[pbman]

http://www.csis.org/features/iraq.cfm

It's a complete mess. You have jihadi maniacs mortaring pilgrims and suicide bombing civil service and police recruitment queues, you have a sunni nationalist guerilla war well into the stalemate stage. You have Iran laughing at you can collecting the prizes.

The storms allways darkest right before its over.

Soon the new gov't is going to have a lot of trained up troops.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

To date our counterinsurgency efforts have focused on cordon and search operations: sweeping neighborhoods looking for weapons and fighters and then returning to our bases each night. When in the streets, we asked Iraqis to turn in insurgents and provide intelligence. At times we patrolled with the explicit goal of building relationships with local leaders as well as facilitating economic, political and social development.

But reminiscent of Vietnam, each time we returned to base we lost the ground we had gained and had to repeat the same operations in the same areas, a few weeks later. In our absence those suspected of "collaborating" were punished, often turning up headless in the street with a note pinned to their chest as a warning to others. Consequently, Iraqis have been too terrified to work with us.

US Marine Civil Affair Officer source

 

[Bernie Gunther]

And here's a pragmatic viewpoint on the neo-con disaster in Iraq from someone who has probably got a much larger collection of assault rifles than you pbman (cheers oi) http://www.exile.ru/2005-May-20/war_nerd.html

Time for Plan B. Plan B is classic guerrilla doctrine: "the long war," where you attack the invaders' local allies, not the foreign troops themselves. The idea is, if you wipe out Iraqi collaborators, the US is just a blind giant. He'll stick around for a while, stumble over the countryside wrecking stuff, but sooner or later he'll get sick of stubbing his toes and go home. So the insurgents are ignoring the hunkered-down, heavily fortified American bases and hitting the key, soft targets: the Iraqi police. And damn, are they killing a lot of those boys! On one day, May 9, 80 Iraqi police were killed. On average, five cops a day are dying. It's safer selling Bibles door-to-door in Peshawar than strolling through Baghdad in an Iraqi cop suit.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The fact the US failed to plan for meaningful stability operations and nation building was the most serious strategic mistake that led to the insurgency and crime that are the focus of this analysis, but these mistakes were compounded by other problems:

there are about three pages of other problems, almost entirely due to neo-con idiocy. source (PDF)

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The storms allways darkest right before its over.

Soon the new gov't is going to have a lot of trained up troops.

You and your jeezo-fascist chimp of a president sound awfully like Johnson in '67.

Wow, "Vietnamization" worked out *so* well the last time eh pbman?

 

[pbman]

You and your jeezo-fascist chimp of a president sound awfully like Johnson in '67.
?

Hardly, he ran and one the election, Johnson, didn't even seen the nomination of his party.

Wow, "Vietnamization" worked out *so* well the last time eh pbman?

It did until the democrats in congress abondoned the poor bastards and hung them out to dry.

But don't let details bother your fantisies.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I can imagine no more worrying trait in a leader, during a terrorist campaign of this nature, than mistaking their own self-serving propaganda for reality.

 

[pbman]

I can imagine no more worrying trait in a leader, during a terrorist campaign of this nature, than mistaking their own self-serving propaganda for reality.

I remmber before the war when you thought it would be staligrad all over again.

Careful of beliving your own bullshit.

Their is no super power backing the terroists in iraq.

Matter of fact their is no other super power, what ever happned to those commie losers anyway?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

... Well, we tortured lots of people -- and that blew up in our faces too, thanks to those idiots with their cellphone cams at Abu Ghraib -- but we never got the dope on the insurgents. That decision not to use Saddam's guys (who were totally ready to work for anybody who paid them) was coming back to haunt us.

And behind that, the real blame goes to Bush & co. for refusing to admit that we were invading, and that invaders are never popular. An invasion is a war, not a friendly visit. If you don't face that fact, you're going to have problems.

With no Iraqi allies, we were a blind giant stumbling around Iraq. And nothing's more fun than tripping up a blind man, especially one that just stomped into your neighborhood claiming to be the toughest guy around. What teenager could resist joining a fun game like that?

source

 

[pbman]

source

I would change the subject if i were you as well berni.

Next i was going to ask why you are cheering on th violence?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I remmber before the war when you thought it would be staligrad all over again.<snip>

What I predicted is coming true, urban warfare is having unacceptable costs for the US in Iraq. Even when you win, the cost is far greater than the benefit.

Take Fallujah. OK, the US Marines did a Grozny 2 on a large industrial town full of sunni resistance fighters. If, as seems extremely likely, it turns out that Fallujah was, as claimed by the Italian press, a major motivating factor along with Abu Ghraib in motivating at least a couple of gangs of British youth to blow up their fellow citizens, and given that the only apparent benefit was to kill a few jihadi idiots while alienating most civilised people around the world.

The stupidity of people like you has ceased being funny pbman. It stopped being funny, if indeed it ever was, on 7/7 when people who think like you started getting innocent Londoners killed.

 

[pbman]

What I predicted is coming true, urban warfare is having unacceptable costs for the US in Iraq. Even when you win, the cost is far greater than the benefit.
.

And you also predicted a stalingrade type battle for bagdad...........

And comared with past wars, this still isn't much.

But keep your head up maybe more people will die tomorrow.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

And you also predicted a stalingrade type battle for bagdad.<snip> .

I think it could still happen. So far the Shiites are mostly staying calm and counting on their demographic advantages to give them control, while Iran laughs and laughs and laughs at neo-con incompetence.

That could easily change if the US got stubborn with them over democracy.

Sadr City is not exactly well-disposed towards the US forces.

Can you say "Tet Offensive"?

 

[Raisin D'etre]

What I predicted is coming true, urban warfare is having unacceptable costs for the US in Iraq. Even when you win, the cost is far greater than the benefit.

Take Fallujah. OK, the US Marines did a Grozny 2 on a large industrial town full of sunni resistance fighters. If, as seems extremely likely, it turns out that Fallujah was, as claimed by the Italian press, a major motivating factor along with Abu Ghraib in motivating at least a couple of gangs of British youth to blow up their fellow citizens, and given that the only apparent benefit was to kill a few jihadi idiots while alienating most civilised people around the world.

The stupidity of people like you has ceased being funny pbman. It stopped being funny, if indeed it ever was, on 7/7 when people who think like you started getting innocent Londoners killed.

It was always lowest common denominator BG. The racism, the hate, the stupidity. You got it!

 

[pbman]

I think it could still happen. QUOTE]

Well you predicted it would happen to us, in the war.

BAgdad fell without a wimper.

I do belive yo uneed a history lesson.

WE would have to fight ten more years at the current rates or so to equal the britsh death in the first day at the battle of the Somme.

 

[pbman]

It was always lowest common denominator BG. The racism, the hate, the stupidity. You got it!

Good point why do you guys hate so much anyways.

It only leads to more death in iraq.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

It was always lowest common denominator BG. The racism, the hate, the stupidity. You got it!

Unfortunately

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Can there be a more lovely person than Pb? Has he be been put here to test us?

 

[pbman]

Can there be a more lovely person than Pb? Has he be been put here to test us?

Shit, you've never met a hard core rightwinger.

Anyways

I've yet to cheer any violence. On the days we kill a bunch of terroists, i don't come around here talking shit..........

 

[Wess]

But the death rate has gone way down since saddam was tossed, i guess you don't care about people dieing, as long as they do it quitely.

utter crap.

It ain't over till its over.

Don't be so lazy, cut and past the relivant parts like i do.

you are actually calling someone else lazy because you are too fucking lazy to click on a link?? un fucking believable.....

BAgdad fell without a wimper.

actually pee...and this has probably gone right over your head...it was a deliberate tactic, why stand there and loose thousands of lives when they can all back off and keep the guerilla war going for years?? Something that the incredibly arrogant US war machine obviously didn't even think off or allow for...that and a plan to get out of the place... the Iraqi's will be cheering us as we drive down the streets of Bahgdad...indeed

I've yet to cheer any violence. On the days we kill a bunch of terroists, i don't come around here talking shit..........

bullshit pee...you have said it and implied it on many occasions.

 

[slaar]

peebs if you don't see the lunacy of comparing battle dead to one of the most outrageously unnecessary losses of life in history then there's not much hope.

 

[Ae589]

I've yet to cheer any violence. On the days we kill a bunch of terroists, i don't come around here talking shit..........

Apparently you don't wait.

Man, I have so enjoyed your attempts to defend this Mongolian Clusterfuck. Any more gems?

 

[Barking_Mad]

You can forgive PB his stupidity, but there is simply no excuse for his ignorance and lack of will to actually READ what's going on in Iraq. The information is there, yet his brain is too busy downloading from Pentagon message control - not wanting to see what's plainly in front of his stupid neo-con eyeballs.

I think many politicians in both the UK and US realise that Iraq is lost. For a long while they may have tried to kid themselves that it was going to be alright, but the time has come where they cannot deny the obvious any longer, or at least the majority can't. Iraq is lost in terms of what the US wanted to do politically and militarily.

Basra has turned to Sharia Law, with many shops selling alcohol closing down or being burnt down. Barbers across Iraq are attacked and killed for shaving men's beards and the new Iraqi constitution looks like it will only subscribe to human rights as long as they fit into the beliefs of Sharia Law. Iraq is cosying up nicely to the US's 'axis of evil' Iran (I doubt that was part of the plan), with many Iraqi troops being trained in Iran itself. The Kurds will continue to push for autonomy and control over northern oil fields made more likely the longer the insurgency goes on. In addition Turkey is getting increasingly concerned about Kurdish rebel groups and threatening to take matters into their own hands unless the US sorts it out themselves.

Baghdad's main mortuary alone is receiving 850 dead bodies per month with the mortician saying they cannot cope. Other reports which didnt make major headlines show that the Iraqi government says at least 8,000 Iraqis have died in the last 6 months alone and a Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies suggests 40,000 Iraqis have died since the invasion. This report came out days before the Iraq Body Count one, but unsurprisingly went 'missing' in the 'liberal media'.

Doctors are being shot and killed, many others are leaving the country in their droves. The hospital system is woefully short of drugs and equipment and academics are being targeted in the same fashion with many being killed, presumably for teaching subjects not condusive to Sharia law. Iraq's roads are unsafe to travel on fuel might be rationed for the winter, the airports are dangerous to fly in and out of, Iraqis are getting less than 4 hours electricity a day, which in 120F+ heat makes life pretty unbearable to say the least. Reconstruction is virtually non-existent due tothe lack of security and some $766m of money has been spent on security alone.

And that's before you've even talked about the under reported civil war going on between Sunni and Shia groups, or the lack of any true Sunni representation in the Government with one Sunni politicians being fired recently whilst claiming it was for speaking out about the killing of Sunni's.

Lastly its been shown that 30% of US soldiers are returning from Iraq with mental health problems and the wars in Afghanistan have cost us tax payers some (wait for it) $700bn[/URL]

Back home it seems the US public believes it is lost too, with only 43% believing the US will win in Iraq. It's here where the war will be lost first. If anyone was in any doubt that the US was not prepared for what happened after the initial invasion then a recent report sets that straight.

Still, at least PB thinks its going ok.

edit - fixed links and added a couple more