That is interesting. I have found an article by John Pilger here. It was written in December 2007
Here is an extract:
when did the working class turn right wing?
- Thread starter trevhagl
- Start date
That is interesting. I have found an article by John Pilger here. It was written in December 2007
Here is an extract:
dennisr
the acceptable face
point taken, maybe some of the left?
You could just say "Uberdog and his pals" for accuracy
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Lobster's search engine turns up two pages of results ("Lobster" being the journal that first revealed the existence of the BAP to the public back in the 90s).
Dissident Junk
picking oakum
Ahhhh ... one of my favourite subjects.
Belushi and Treelover are right. There has always been a strong Conservative presence amongst the working class.
I was born and brought up -- and now live -- in an old Northern working class milltown in West Yorkshire. For some bizarre reason, politicos always see my consistuency to be red through and through -- largely because it was Labour in the 60s when most of these people began in left wing politics.
But this is now laughable. Our constituency only fell to Labour in '97 (and we are literally talking about majority of 500 votes in 05). And I would argue that this isn't because former Tory voters turned red, but that they stopped going out to vote in general elections, thus allowing Labour to take the seat.
Again, of 51 local councillors in our area, only about five are Labour, the majority are Tory with a minority of LibDem.
We are marginal seats, yet neither the Torys nor Labour ever seem to perceive us as such.
From my anecdotal mental filing cabinet, I can think of a fair few reasons why the working population of this area isn't particularly enamoured with Labour, the left, nor ever has been. Certainly in my grandmother's family (now aged from 60 to 80), Labour was always synonymous with trade unionism, and in our area (textile mills), trade unionists actually made working conditions worse for factory workers and dyers back in the 60s.
In one particular case, a trade unionist got work in a factory my great uncle worked at, set up a shop, forced everyone to join, and began to make very aggressive demands on a very benevolent owner who reacted badly to the aggression, and poof! gone was the nod and a wink if you had to leave work to pick up a poorly child or pop home to fix tea for an hour.
Likewise, I think the majority of baby boomers in our area (largely suspicious of trade-unionism and fat cat stewards; and largely non-university-educated, plus the Harold Wilson endorsement of Kagan, known locally for having dreadful working conditions and being an awful nasty bloke to work for) had a fair reason for not particularly favouring Labour either. Their experiences during the 60s have coloured their entire political viewpoint.
Plus ... of course ... a lot of them became home-owners under Thatch's promotion of FTB.
I do sometimes wonder if the working class Tory vs working class Labour thing though is maybe to do with some sort of transience in the geographical area concerned. There's one thing you can say for our part of the constituency (very Tory) is that it is very old, and very stable. We have families here who have lived in the area since the 13th century, there is a sense of continuity, my neighbours have ancestors whose names are on the memorial across the road. Yet, further up the valley (more Labour), it is more middle-class, more eco-obsessed, more transient, and has more Southerners.
Tis interesting.
Just my tuppence worth there.
Belushi and Treelover are right. There has always been a strong Conservative presence amongst the working class.
I was born and brought up -- and now live -- in an old Northern working class milltown in West Yorkshire. For some bizarre reason, politicos always see my consistuency to be red through and through -- largely because it was Labour in the 60s when most of these people began in left wing politics.
But this is now laughable. Our constituency only fell to Labour in '97 (and we are literally talking about majority of 500 votes in 05). And I would argue that this isn't because former Tory voters turned red, but that they stopped going out to vote in general elections, thus allowing Labour to take the seat.
Again, of 51 local councillors in our area, only about five are Labour, the majority are Tory with a minority of LibDem.
We are marginal seats, yet neither the Torys nor Labour ever seem to perceive us as such.
From my anecdotal mental filing cabinet, I can think of a fair few reasons why the working population of this area isn't particularly enamoured with Labour, the left, nor ever has been. Certainly in my grandmother's family (now aged from 60 to 80), Labour was always synonymous with trade unionism, and in our area (textile mills), trade unionists actually made working conditions worse for factory workers and dyers back in the 60s.
In one particular case, a trade unionist got work in a factory my great uncle worked at, set up a shop, forced everyone to join, and began to make very aggressive demands on a very benevolent owner who reacted badly to the aggression, and poof! gone was the nod and a wink if you had to leave work to pick up a poorly child or pop home to fix tea for an hour.
Likewise, I think the majority of baby boomers in our area (largely suspicious of trade-unionism and fat cat stewards; and largely non-university-educated, plus the Harold Wilson endorsement of Kagan, known locally for having dreadful working conditions and being an awful nasty bloke to work for) had a fair reason for not particularly favouring Labour either. Their experiences during the 60s have coloured their entire political viewpoint.
Plus ... of course ... a lot of them became home-owners under Thatch's promotion of FTB.
I do sometimes wonder if the working class Tory vs working class Labour thing though is maybe to do with some sort of transience in the geographical area concerned. There's one thing you can say for our part of the constituency (very Tory) is that it is very old, and very stable. We have families here who have lived in the area since the 13th century, there is a sense of continuity, my neighbours have ancestors whose names are on the memorial across the road. Yet, further up the valley (more Labour), it is more middle-class, more eco-obsessed, more transient, and has more Southerners.
Tis interesting.
Just my tuppence worth there.
The Black Hand
Unclean
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
If the middle-class area is more Labour than the working-class one, then it flies in the face of all the statistics on voting nationally.
Oh, and you're going on the union cliches thread for "fat cat stewards".
Oh, and you're going on the union cliches thread for "fat cat stewards".
Dissident Junk
picking oakum
It's the fekking Southerners fault!
THe North shall rise again!!
The North is already rising, Attica! We already officially have less percentage poverty than London!
And that is why all those Southerners are coming up here, because we are quaint. They are secret "Tory-gorgers" and lovers of old Yorkshireness, but cannot bring themselves to admit it for fear of their heads exploding.
Dissident Junk
picking oakum
Humm . . . there is a difference between Southern middle-class people and Northern middle-class people tho.
But that's another thread, methinks.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
IIRC from psephology lessons way back in my politics degree, the % of w/c tory support nationally has stayed pretty constant at about 1/3 of the w/c. but the reasons for that support have changed - traditionally it was the deferential vote, now it's more likely to be based around support for low taxes.
Essex is a weird county - red in councils, but not in MPs, altho even with the Blues the quality and type of MP varied immensely - from my old MP, Tony Newton who was an excellent consitutency MP, to a bruiser like Teddy Taylor...
Essex is a weird county - red in councils, but not in MPs, altho even with the Blues the quality and type of MP varied immensely - from my old MP, Tony Newton who was an excellent consitutency MP, to a bruiser like Teddy Taylor...
Have to say i think youve missed out the important other side of the coin...Why have the Liberal Left become more and more anti working class....
Why do they dismiss the ideas of working class people on issues like public services,immigration and crime as reactionary?
Who are the real reactionaries here? Working class people generally or those who think they should just learn to listen and obey?
when did the working class turn right wing?
shoudlnt the question be when did the left turn away from the working class IMO the left have never really understood the conservative nature of the working class anyway if the miners were the most radical members of the working class left ever even they would be accused of being rightwing these days
shoudlnt the question be when did the left turn away from the working class IMO the left have never really understood the conservative nature of the working class anyway if the miners were the most radical members of the working class left ever even they would be accused of being rightwing these days
The Black Hand
Unclean
ALl the wrong questions of course - this is all more divisive bollocks.
What we should be discussing far far more is unity, class struggle(s) and how to achieve it/them.
What we should be discussing far far more is unity, class struggle(s) and how to achieve it/them.
1950?
( check the election results ..) though i guess you could say the tory party then was way to the left of todays Labour party!
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Good point.
The Black Hand
Unclean
1950?
Not so wrong Mr.
That was the era of the first wave of Marxist crisis, including Anthony Crossland, Goldthorpe and Lockwood (the affluent worker thesis) and more.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Yes and no.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I imagine you bawling that at the top of your voice, standing at attention wearing a sergeant major's uniform, your face going red and flecks of spittle flying in every direction.
Not sure why
Its no good shouting
No what you mean is the working class should be doing what the current left wing intelligensia tells them to do- No change there then-Unfortunatelly the left do not seem willing to have any disscussion as to why given the way things are they racing towards oblivion
My point about the miners and which many have failed to address is simple- why would they be considered right wing today? becasue they were a racially exclusive patriacry thats why. The left has sadly become more like a religous cult really
I wonder if at the Convention Of The Left , people will for example be able to discuss mass immigration, no borders, etc in a civilised democratic manner, particulalry as the far left seems to muddy the waters as it were by putting asylum seekers, refugees, etc, in with migrants, immigrants, etc all into one category.
I very much doubt it....
I very much doubt it....
The Black Hand
Unclean
A) No i do not. You are being disingenuous at best.
B) Totally. And the anarchist groups.
The whole basis of this discussion is daft. The fact that the organisations of the far-left and anarchism have very little working class support, and that militant union activity (or any union activity) is at a low ebb, etc etc, doesn't mean that the working class is right wing. While the economics of the right of centre are dominant, this society in general can in no way be considered right wing (whatever a right wing society is supposed to be.)
At the height of old Labour's power and influence and of trade union militancy, rather than 'society being more left-wing,' it, including the working class, was much more socially conservative, for good or ill.
The lesson is that neo-liberal economics breaks down working class solidarity and fragments societies, as well as appropriating the liberal and libertarian fetishes of a section of the old radical left, in some cases making them profitable and watching them contribute towards further social breakdown or atomisation. Despite a sizeable percentage of the working class (and others) feeling alienated by the type of society being created, the left, in its broadest sense, has no answers to any of this. In fact, as is evidenced by this thread, it barely recognises the nature of its predicament.
Hobsbawm puts it well when he calls the process of the last three or four decades 'the triumph of the individual over society.'
At the height of old Labour's power and influence and of trade union militancy, rather than 'society being more left-wing,' it, including the working class, was much more socially conservative, for good or ill.
The lesson is that neo-liberal economics breaks down working class solidarity and fragments societies, as well as appropriating the liberal and libertarian fetishes of a section of the old radical left, in some cases making them profitable and watching them contribute towards further social breakdown or atomisation. Despite a sizeable percentage of the working class (and others) feeling alienated by the type of society being created, the left, in its broadest sense, has no answers to any of this. In fact, as is evidenced by this thread, it barely recognises the nature of its predicament.
Hobsbawm puts it well when he calls the process of the last three or four decades 'the triumph of the individual over society.'
When I was growing up it wasn't uncommon to find people who were militant on union issues and voted Labour, but harked back to Enoch Powell when it came to immigration issues.
People are rarely ideologically consistent.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
agree with that; around 1979, the Left took a disastrous wrong turn. One theory has it the process was started by a Martin Jacques article, but the left had for a time been confused by the more fluid, changing class structure of Britain, and started wibbling on about gender politics, multiculturalism, environmentalism, race/age/sexuality/ethnicity/whatever politics...anything but Class Struggle, because they (wrongly) assumed issues of class to be as dead as ol' Victor Grayson.
In short, they - the polytechnic lecturers who are the massed ranks of the activist left - took us for granted and left the workers behind. And the workers, not being daft, got the message.
which is why Labour, for one, are dead in the water, and the Labour and non-Labour Left, have spent the past 30 years disappearing shoutily up their own arses
I doubt it'll even be an issue for them. Nor will crime.
liampreston
Spend time, not money
My father and grandfather (the latter a miner in Wigan from 14 to retirement) called themselves working-class Tories, in a reaction to what my father described the "divisions" he saw under Labour in the 60s and 70s. My father could never understand why Labour felt the need to prescribe and preach, whilst such policies as the right-to-buy went down well with him, and the parents of school friends in the council estates of Preston where I grew up. It is not so much the working class turning Tory, there has always been the element of "good self-made men" who will naturally turn to the party of enterprise and business.
During the most recent council elections here, I spoke to people living in some of the most low-income areas of Preston, who told me they were life-long Labour voters who were hoping for a BNP candidate because only "they spoke our language". The notion of multi-cultural inclusivity is somewhat alien to them, a point I think we all need to take on board.
During the most recent council elections here, I spoke to people living in some of the most low-income areas of Preston, who told me they were life-long Labour voters who were hoping for a BNP candidate because only "they spoke our language". The notion of multi-cultural inclusivity is somewhat alien to them, a point I think we all need to take on board.
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