when did the working class turn right wing?

[Hocus Eye.]

Even further back IMHO Trev - in the 1970's, the last Labour government before Thatcher. They provoked the winter of discontent and started taking on organised Labour.

Of course Labours contradictory position - on the one hand being funded by working people and on the other attacking them for the bosses, meant they were not up to the job and so Thatcher had to do the work for the capitalist class.

Yes the infamous "Winter of Discontent" so named by tabloid journalists who love to play games with quotes from literature, was caused by the Labour government. That government was using monetarist policies in an effort to cut inflation. The inflation had been caused by the rise in oil prices.

The trade unions leaders had been suckered into the "social compact" (sometimes called the social contract) whereby they would hold back on wage claims to support the Labour party in a time of difficulty. The rank and file trade union members however were struggling to pay their living costs so they voted for strike action.

It was remarkably similar to the position of the trade unions today. Contrary to the tabloid view, trade unions usually act as a brake on rank and file anger and militancy, especially when there is a so called Labour government in power. The tensions increase though and if the unions don't respond to the anger of their members there is the likelyhood of unofficial strikes.

However it was the man who became the first monetarist chancellor, Dennis Healey, who having been misled (as it later turned out) by the Treasury thought that it was necessary to borrow money from the IMF and went along with their requirements to cut social spending. Ionically he had gone to the IMF in the first place because he was concerned to be able to pay for the welfare state.

Come the election, labour supporters deserted, many because they felt they had been betrayed and others because they were seduced by Thatchers populist policies. She was just playing the election game though, as the unemployment figures showed within months.

 

[poster342002]

After WW2 they made plans for the future which are fairly secret - 30 year secrecy orders or something. They decided which villages/towns would survive and which would be allowed to die. They were not based on anything other than organising government rule for the future, of course that means working class power should be avoided and allowed to atrophy. In effect, around here in County Durham, they uprooted villages and plonked the people on big new build council estates elsewhere eg. in Bishop Auckland. These estates have long term problems cos the work has not been there from the outset -when they closed the mines.

Sounds very similar to what Ceausescu of Romania did - uprooting whole "troublesome" villages and communities and forcing them into bleak housing estates.

 

[newbie]

The Midlands has long been a hotbed of working class Toryism.

I suppose that might be so, although it was patchy- Cowley wasn't a million miles away and that was always pretty militant.

Why should working class consciousness historically vary from region to region when objectively the conditions weren't that dissimilar?

 

[Belushi]

Why should working class consciousness historically vary from region to region when objectively the conditions weren't that dissimilar?

There a big difference in attitudes between workers in big, heavy industries and those in smaller workplaces iirc.

 

[Spion]

One relative was a rabid supporter of Hitler and Mosley and after they were discredited was a lifelong Tory voter.

'one relative' . . . is that like 'a friend'?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I have to agree with your old man. After WW2 they made plans for the future which are fairly secret - 30 year secrecy orders or something. They decided which villages/towns would survive and which would be allowed to die. They were not based on anything other than organising government rule for the future, of course that means working class power should be avoided and allowed to atrophy. In effect, around here in County Durham, they uprooted villages and plonked the people on big new build council estates elsewhere eg. in Bishop Auckland. These estates have long term problems cos the work has not been there from the outset -when they closed the mines.

Attica this sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. There is such a thing as the '30 year rule' whereby cabinet discussion papers are held back for 30 years so as to avoid embarrassing participants to discussions within their political life. This is a custom used by all parties. There is also a 50 year rule for certain papers as well, I think.

However if there is anything in your story neither a 30 year or a 50 year rule would prevent the story of post war plans coming out now.

Certainly the Wilson government of 64 - most particularly Wilson himself was almost paranoid about the power of the trade unions within the party and in the country. Interestingly the trade union influence on the Labour Party even in the 60s was a right wing tendency. They were on the right of the party in all of the Annual Conference votes. Once again it was the tabloids who wanted to attack trade unions who talked up stories about militant individuals like 'Red Robbo' in the car industry but the reality was very different. I would be surprised if the post war Labour government was worried about militancy in the coal mines though, they had just nationalised them.

 

[treelover]

Blimey, Newbie, you are older than I am, the demographic on U75 is not as young as i though it was

I don't know if that was true up north but it wasn't on the midlands estate where I spent my 50s/60s childhood.

 

[newbie]

@ belushi

I appreciate that but carmaking wasn't perhaps as heavy or dangerous as coal or steel, but it was hardly a light industry. As i said, every household on our estate had the same employer/landlord yet there was little or no sense of common, class-based, purpose, something my dad, a big community and tenants activist would lament, although he'd never join a union.


sorry treelover, I'll pretend shall I

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The policy of closing down villages in the nort east ran from the 1930s until the 1970s; a sytem of classification was introduced whereby villages marked for closure were given a d. The policy was resisted, sometimes successfully which is a testament to the skill and courage of these working class communties.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[kropotkin]

I have to agree with your old man. After WW2 they made plans for the future which are fairly secret - 30 year secrecy orders or something. They decided which villages/towns would survive and which would be allowed to die. They were not based on anything other than organising government rule for the future, of course that means working class power should be avoided and allowed to atrophy. In effect, around here in County Durham, they uprooted villages and plonked the people on big new build council estates elsewhere eg. in Bishop Auckland. These estates have long term problems cos the work has not been there from the outset -when they closed the mines.

Proof?
Links?

How do you know this?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

The policy of closing down villages in the nort east ran from the 1930s until the 1970s; a sytem of classification was introduced whereby villages marked for closure were given a d. The policy was resisted, sometimes successfully which is a testament to the skill and courage of these working class communties.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Louis I want to know more about this because I had never heard of it. Can you point me to where I can find out more? There isn't an easy phrase to use in a search engine for this.

 

[The Black Hand]

I suppose that might be so, although it was patchy- Cowley wasn't a million miles away and that was always pretty militant.

Why should working class consciousness historically vary from region to region when objectively the conditions weren't that dissimilar?

That is what has caused numerous crisis in Marxism and with anarchists.

Consciousness is not automatic, which is something Marxists and anarchists should be able to explain rather than merely assert their politics repeatedly - even though history has proven their ultra leftism idealistically wrong.

Orthodox interpretations haven't got the political sophistication which knows we need dynamic and sensuous theories, and not simplistic ultra left tosh. There have been many who have noted this and developed Humanist Marxism in response to this sort of painting by numbers Marxism, later Autonomist Marxism would also be of the sophisticated variety.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Proof?
Links?

How do you know this?

In the case of County Durham simply google D villages. The closure of these villages was systematic; the publically stated motivations were economic (the unviable pit argument) and philanthropic (to improve the living conditions by providing new housing). However, it is hard to see how the economic and political rationales can be so easily seperated; it surely would have been apparent to those formulating the strategy, that it wasn't exactly designed to boost working class militancy and cohesion.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[poster342002]

The policy of closing down villages in the nort east ran from the 1930s until the 1970s; a sytem of classification was introduced whereby villages marked for closure were given a d.

Exactly the same thing as in Romania under Ceausescu ...

 

[The Black Hand]

Proof?
Links?

How do you know this?

It is one of the things I have picked up from talking to people politically. Funnily enough it was somebody in London (generation older than me) who told me about it. I could get the 'knowledge' as it has been taught in Universities, and I could try and contact my old contact for you...

 

[dennisr]

You could do with looking at the development of the Sun newspaper. It was always a working class paper but gradually became more right wing in the 1970's. Of course some areas are more solidly socialist than others, such as Liverpool and environs.

I think the right wing working class ideas have been encouraged because people change jobs regularly and move around. In the new build estates there isn't the consciousness of class that there used to be, now people do all sorts of different work.

In the old days one workplace - such as consett steelworks or any of the shipyards allowed collective working class consciousness to grow and bloom, especially cos people lived close to one another. They rarely left their own street in them days and certainly never out of town! Except perhaps for holidays in Blackpool where they met all their mates.

Bit of a myth re Liverpool I am afraid - it has a liberal council now and had a liberal/tory coalition for years before the militant time. And that despite a strong working-class left tradition among some working class groups in the city

That does reinforce some of your arguements below this though - liverpools working traditions - the nature of employment there has always been more like what is now a national situation - break up of big workplaces, less secure employment conditions, short contracts.

That does not necessarily make for a 'tory' working class - it does make for a more politically unstable class that can swing in its preferences. I don't think one can blame all that on the Sun - most Sun readrs still vote Labour despite the Sun's stance and politics - it certainly helps to make achieving a certain level of 'conciousness' harder though

 

[newbie]

That is what has caused numerous crisis in Marxism and with anarchists.

Orthodox interpretations haven't got the political sophistication which knows we need dynamic and sensuous theories, and not simplistic ultra left tosh. There have been many who have noted this and developed Humanist Marxism in response to this sort of painting by numbers Marxism, later Autonomist Marxism would also be of the sophisticated variety.

I'm sorry, I'm a simple bloke and clearly lack the sophistication required to keep up, but would you mind translating that, please. i can't even work out if you're accusing me of "simplistic ultra left tosh", or "painting by numbers Marxism" or what, and I don't know what either of them mean.

 

[The Black Hand]

D notice village fairly typical in Co. Durham;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haswell_County_Durham

 

[The Black Hand]

I'm sorry, I'm a simple bloke and clearly lack the sophistication required to keep up, but would you mind translating that, please. i can't even work out if you're accusing me of "simplistic ultra left tosh", or "painting by numbers Marxism" or what, and I don't know what either of them mean.

I wasn't accusing you of anything.

I was on about 'party policy' which says X = Y, therefore we do this, then they move on to the next area and try the same thing, s = T therefore we do this... This is failed nonsense Marxism, old style CP/SWP stuff.

 

[The Black Hand]

Bit of a myth re Liverpool I am afraid - it has a liberal council now and had a liberal/tory coalition for years before the militant time. And that despite a strong working-class left tradition among some working class groups in the city

That does reinforce some of your arguements below this though - liverpools working traditions - the nature of employment there has always been more like what is now a national situation - break up of big workplaces, less secure employment conditions, short contracts.

That does not necessarily make for a 'tory' working class - it does make for a more politically unstable class that can swing in its preferences. I don't think one can blame all that on the Sun - most Sun readrs still vote Labour despite the Sun's stance and politics - it certainly helps to make achieving a certain level of 'conciousness' harder though

I have known and have come across enough Liverpudlians to know there is truth in it.

 

[dennisr]

Absolutely, the Unionist Primrose League , a organisation of conservative working men had over 1 million members in the late 19th C. its something the left has always wanted to ignore.



Belushi said
'Theres alway been a right wing working class tradition.

How is it 'ignored by the left' - this spurious arguement is becoming a bit tedious

If you said it was 'ignored by some student fantasists who consider themselves on the left' you may have a point. (but not a particularly insightful one! - like they were ever any different?

The conservatism of the union leaders reflects in some sense that conservative tradition that is part of the traditions in this country. As does the language and approach of serious lefts - with propaganda aimed at the existing outlook of their potential audience

 

[newbie]

I wasn't accusing you of anything.

I was on about 'party policy' which says X = Y, therefore we do this, then they move on to the next area and try the same thing, s = T therefore we do this... This is failed nonsense Marxism, old style CP/SWP stuff.

um, ok, ta.

 

[dennisr]

I have known and have come across enough Liverpudlians to know there is truth in it.

Yes, so have I (having lived in the city during both 'left' and 'right moving periods and learnt a lot from plenty of life-long activists from the city)

 

[ViolentPanda]

belushi, he could be right, but never have Labour had so much contempt for their own voters than they do now

I kind of see Labour's downfall in terms of it's evolution from a party at least partly composed of MPs who'd worked their way up from the factory floor via the local trade union, and of people who'd worked in "blue-collar" jobs to a parliamentary party where the MPs are predominantly from "the professions", even up north.
As the party became more inhabited by "professionals" it shifted further toward the centre until, after Thatcher, it could be appropriated by centre-rightists.
They have contempt for us because they don't understand us, and they don't understand us because most of them have never walked a mile in our shoes.

 

[glenquagmire]

treelover spouting the usual lazy generalisations about "the left" ignoring stuff?

It could happen.

 

[Belushi]

Fascinating stuff about the D-Notice villages, had never heard about them before.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

In the case of County Durham simply google D villages. The closure of these villages was systematic; the publically stated motivations were economic (the unviable pit argument) and philanthropic (to improve the living conditions by providing new housing). However, it is hard to see how the economic and political rationales can be so easily seperated; it surely would have been apparent to those formulating the strategy, that it wasn't exactly designed to boost working class militancy and cohesion.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I have succeeded with a search. Here is the result

 

[The Black Hand]

How is it 'ignored by the left' - this spurious arguement is becoming a bit tedious

If you said it was 'ignored by some student fantasists who consider themselves on the left' you may have a point. (but not a particularly insightful one! - like they were ever any different?

The conservatism of the union leaders reflects in some sense that conservative tradition that is part of the traditions in this country. As does the language and approach of serious lefts - with propaganda aimed at the existing outlook of their potential audience

Yes Dennis.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Eh? Bilderberg is just a talking shop for powerful people in private. They talk with each other in private all the time. So any 'plot' to subvert the Labour Party is just as likely to have been hatched at the Ivy as at a Bilderberg meeting. Don't let paranoia overwhelm common sense

If we're going to get conspiratastic, it's far more relevant to look at the fact that so many alumni of the "British-American Project" featured in the genesis of "new Labour" (and Clinton's Democratic) "ideology".

 

[treelover]

point taken, maybe some of the left?

How is it 'ignored by the left' - this spurious arguement is becoming a bit tedious