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whats up with cannabis?

30,000 dead from drinking related diseases in the UK last year and these fuckers think they have the moral authority to tell us not to smoke weed.

Really, you couldnt make this shit up if you tried.
 
RaverDrew said:
What about cultivation in a house where children also lived ? Say just one or two plants ?
If it's a cupboard grow, make sure there are locks.

If not, make sure the kids cannot get access and make it demonstrably so.

:)

Woof
 
detective-boy said:
Regardless of the persons own opinions, the officers have no discretion about following th required procedures once a charge or caution or whatever is decided upon.
But they do have the absolute discretion as to whether to caution/charge, or simply turn a blind eye and walk away, I believe.

Is that so d-b?

And if so, is that discretion still available to them if the "discovery" was the result of a complaint?

And anyway, if so (without any complaint,) why don't they do it all the time?

We're always hearing that police "waste too much time" dealing with cannabis, time that could be devoted to "real" crime. If all cops used their "discretion" over cannabis, surely this particular law would have to be changed to reflect the reality of the situation?

The law is wrong about cannabis.

It's a bad law.

:(

Woof
 
There is no way in a million years that anyone would find the Misuse of Drugs Act in breach of human rights

not quite correct, there is a current challenge (which may go to europe, im not sure where its at at the moment) suggesting prosecution for medical cannabis is a breach of the human rights act arguing a defence of medical necessity

i think the lords kicked it out and its going to europe, ill try find some links later
 
there are two groups of medical cannabis producer/distributors going through the UK courts now :( its fucking criminal
 
smokedout said:
not quite correct,
And also not quite what I posted - the rider I placed on the statement you quoted was meant to imply that there may be scope to get bits and pieces around the edges changed (and the medical thing is, I think, bound to change in some way soon anyway).

But, as you obviously recognise, the way to do that is by the appeal process, not by claiming that your human rights are being infringed to a copper just doing their job!
 
detective-boy said:
]Why would they think their human rights were being violated?:confused:

Because some people think that drug use is a (or should be) a human right.

They believe that if only the as an individual have soverignity over their own body. The believe they should be free to treat their own bodies as the please.

And they think cops crashing into their house for a crime that doesn't involve harming anyone, and only involves their own body is an abuse of human rights.
 
detective-boy said:
Yes it does. There is no way in a million years that anyone would find the Misuse of Drugs Act in breach of human rights, at least insofar as the criminalisation of particular offences is concerned. You would have to demonstrate which ECHR right it breached and would have to demonstrate that it was not a proportionate response to an identified crime "problem".
Rastafarians on freedom of religion grounds? People using it as medicine on 'right to life' grounds? I don't see how people taking cannabis is in itself any kind of "crime problem" at all to be honest, so how could there be a "proportionate response" to it?

Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life

1 Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2 There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Article 9 – Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

1 Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

http://www.echr.coe.int/ECHR/EN/Hea...Convention+on+Human+Rights+and+its+Protocols/
 
Barking_Mad said:
30,000 dead from drinking related diseases in the UK last year and these fuckers think they have the moral authority to tell us not to smoke weed.

Really, you couldnt make this shit up if you tried.
So True, So True!! :cool:
 
TeeJay said:
Rastafarians on freedom of religion grounds? People using it as medicine on 'right to life' grounds? I don't see how people taking cannabis is in itself any kind of "crime problem" at all to be honest, so how could there be a "proportionate response" to it?
If the use of cannabis could be shown to actually prevent a fatal aspect of a disease then a Right to Life argument would be interesting and, I would have thought, stand a reasonable chance of success. But so far as I am aware the only evidence for it's medical use relates to pain suppression.

The relevant bit of the two articles you quote (and all the other qualified rights) is "There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.". This is where the proportionality comes in - a State must show that any breach of a convention right is proportionate to the perceived dangers to national security, etc.; that it is lawful (that is, the breach is authorised by an appropriate law); that actions are accountable (in that records are kept of how and why breaches are authorised) and necessary (in that no alternative is available which would be as effective).

YOU may not see how cannabis is a crime problem, but the majority of the people in this country, expressing their views through Parliament, do. And as virtually every State in the world has some list of proscribed substances there is, in my opinion, absolutely no way that you would convince a Court that the laws which make cannabis possession and use illegal are, in themselves unlawful or (especially since reduction in classification and guidance on less stringent prosecution) disproportionate.

You need to change the minds of the majority (and, I think, you are steadily getting there). Trying to use the human rights act is not going to be any kind of silver bullet for the drug laws I'm afraid.
 
Jessiedog said:
But they do have the absolute discretion as to whether to caution/charge, or simply turn a blind eye and walk away, I believe.

Is that so d-b?
All police officers do have an absolute discretion to decide whether or not to arrest, etc. in a particular case. Unfortuately they also have a sworn duty to apply the law (which can be (and increasingly is being) enforced by the use of the common law offence of malfeasance in public office).

Whilst you, I and many others believe that cannabis should be decriminalised, many, many others do not. That is why it remains illegal and even minor steps in the direction of decriminalisation attract howls of protest (somewhat hypocritically, especially from the media who have ... er ... never used any proscribed substance at all, ever, no, not us guv! :rolleyes: )

There is no way that the police could organisationally declare that they would not enforce the law (or even do so by the back door by doing much more than their latest "Don't bother arresting / charging unless there are aggravating circumstances" bit) without being censored. The amount of time spent on cannabis (other than large scale dealing / importation) is pretty low now anyway.

At a lower level there is no way an individual officer could ALWAYS exercise discretion in the direction of taking no further action without attracting censor from senior officers or, in cases where another member of the public had complained (and there are a surprising number of them) and then goes on to complain about the police's lack of action.

I personally think the most likely route to success is (i) sensible campaigning for decriminalisation (i.e. not just saying "It's wrong, it should be changed" but providing arguments); (ii) campaigners seeking to work with the (increasing number) of police officers who favour decriminalisation to provide a joint front and (iii) conducting or encouraging research to prove one way or another the down-sides which are thrown up by the "keep illegal" side. I also do not think that it could be done unilaterally by the UK - because of ease of movement through Europe we would just risk an influx of users from across Europe which, unless we had a plan, would be likely to prove ammunition for the "keep illegal"s. I think Europe wide is the smallest scale likely to stand any chance of acceptance.

Unfortunately, because so little definitive research is available at present, much of the argument (on both sides) is based on entrenched moral positions and unproven "facts". As research is carried out, both sides must be prepared for some wins and some losses (e.g. the recent study which found MORE health risk links than had previously been thought at the time of down-grading).
 
max_freakout said:
i dont agree it is a misunderstanding of the concept of human rights, because 'a 'and 'b' are perfectly true, but 'c' isnt, people are under no obligation to submit to unjust laws, and it is a violation of a person's human rights to be arrested and detained
YOU may BELIEVE that it SHOULD be a violation of a person's human rights to be arrested and detained. But it is NOT a breach of the human rights applicable in Europe.

The ECHR (and, so far as I know, every other convention on Human Rights anywhere in the world allows arrest on suspicion of an offence (amongst other things):

Article 5 ECHR Right to liberty and security said:
1 Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be
deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance
with a procedure prescribed by law:

(c) the lawful arrest or detention of a person effected for the purpose of
bringing him before the competent legal authority on reasonable
suspicion of having committed an offence or when it is reasonably
considered necessary to prevent his committing an offence or fleeing
after having done so;

http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/D5CC24A7-DC13-4318-B457-5C9014916D7A/0/EnglishAnglais.pdf
 
Funky_monks said:
Really? Any person?

Even axe-murderers, like?


No, because axe-murderers and the like don't respect other people's human rights, this is what i thought the police were for, not harmless cannabis growers :confused:
 
detective-boy said:
Unfortunately, because so little definitive research is available at present, much of the argument (on both sides) is based on entrenched moral positions and unproven "facts". As research is carried out, both sides must be prepared for some wins and some losses (e.g. the recent study which found MORE health risk links than had previously been thought at the time of down-grading).


But this is a human rights issue, not a health issue, the legalisation debate is about the use of coercive force to stop individuals using/supplying cannabis, WHETHER OR NOT cannabis is harmful to health.

Obviously the assumption behind this is that is you stop using the police against cannabis, the level of usage will increase, but WHERE is the evidence for that? Cannabis use is at an all time high DESPITE a century of aggressive and continuous law enforcement against it in this country :confused:
 
detective-boy said:
You need to change the minds of the majority (and, I think, you are steadily getting there). Trying to use the human rights act is not going to be any kind of silver bullet for the drug laws I'm afraid.
I think you will find that the majority of people already think the current laws are bullshit. I will try and find some opinion polls...
 
detective-boy said:
You need to change the minds of the majority (and, I think, you are steadily getting there). Trying to use the human rights act is not going to be any kind of silver bullet for the drug laws I'm afraid.
I think you will find that the majority of people already think the current laws are bullshit. I will try and find some opinion polls...

edit:

http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/TEL040101001.pdf
January 2004

In your view, are all drugs much the same, or should a distinction be made between 'hard' drugs such as heroin and crack cocaine and 'soft' drugs such as cannabis?

* All drugs are much the same 41%
* Hard and soft drugs should be distinguished from each other 57%
* Don't know 2%

Does the use of soft drugs...?

* Cause harm to all users 19%
* Cause harm to most users 28%
* Cause harm to a minority of users 45%
* Does not cause harm to any users 2%
* Don't know 6%

With regard to soft drugs such as cannabis, which of these statements comes closest to your own view?

* The sale and possession of such drugs should remain a criminal offence as now 43%
* The sale and possession of such hard drugs should remain illegal but should be regarded as a minor offence, such as parking in the wrong place, rather than a CRIMINAL offence (a policy sometimes called ‘decriminalisation’) 28%
* The sale and possession of such hard drugs should no longer be illegal (sometimes called ‘legalisation’) 23%
* Don't know 6%

edit:****I am pretty sure there is a typo in the above answers, saying 'hard' in stead of 'soft' in the second and third answers****

From the beginning of next month, one of the so-called soft drugs, cannabis, will be downgraded from being a class B drug to a class C drug, meaning in practice that, although selling it and possessing it is still illegal, people who use it in private are unlikely to be prosecuted. Do you approve or disapprove of the change in the law?

* Approve 52%
* Disapprove 39%
* Don't know 10%

And this is despite all the "schizophrenia" bullshit and no effort whatsoever by the government or health bodies to give any other view apart from "cannabis is really bad/dangerous".
 
Wilson said:
s kinda dependent on the judges directions though..
Their verdict isn't. Apart from directing an acquittal because they have ruled that the evidence is insufficient in law to substantiate a conviction, judges do not direct the jury on their verdict at all.

They CANNOT direct a conviction. Even if their summing up is considered to be significantly biased towards guilt, any conviction can be, and often is, overturned on appeal.

So far as I am aware, they have no power to deal with a jury who have acquitted someone who is "clearly" guilty or if they have wilfully ignored a judges direction on a point of law.

There is a memorial stone on the outside wall of the Old Bailey to a jury who were held in contempt of Court hundreds of years ago. They stuck it out and eventually won the day (I think). I have never heard of anything even remotely similar in recent times.
 
TeeJay said:
I think you will find that the majority of people already think the current laws are bullshit. I will try and find some opinion polls...
That is the problem with our current political system. There is a time lag between public opinion changing and the politicians moving with it.

It is primarily a POLITICAL problem, not a POLICING one. There is no constitutional way you can expect the police to ignore the law and unilaterally give effect to "public opinion". Otherwise we'd have them setting up the gallows in the station yards within hours ... :rolleyes:
 
:)
but how many juries actually know that? are they informed that they can do? & has this ever happened in a cannabis trial?

when was the last time it happened in any trial about anything?
 
heres a quote from a man called Alan Buffry, how accurate or reliable it is i dont know

I once sat through a trial where the guy was defending himself, trying to tell the Jury that they should find him not guilty despite the evidence because there was no victim to his so-called crime. He did manage to get it said a few times but each time the Judge told the court that the Jury had to reach their verdict based on the evidence alone (the Judge has the Right to tell them that, apparently, but the don't have to stick with it, although many people will). The Judge also kept stopping him saying things, claiming it was at the wrong time (not evidence, should be under circumstances, or summing up) then it was too late.
 
MatthewCuffe said:
Am I right in believing it costs in the order of £20,000 - £25,000 per year to imprison somebody in the UK?

Actually, I believe it's approx. £37,000 per year (average), the re-offending rate of prisoners is between 60-80%.
 
Wilson said:
when was the last time it happened in any trial about anything?
Seeing as the CPS only prosecte cases where there is a realistic chance of a conviction and the guilty rate in contested trials is less than 100% (a LOT less than 100% in some areas), it would appear that juries disagree with the police / prosecution quite a lot!

(ETA:As for blatantly bringing in an acquittal in the face of overwhelming evidence, there were a couple of cases related to peace campaigners (criminal damage charges I think), where the jury acquitted and basically said "we don't think it should be an offence". I personally dealt with a case where some "cheeky chappy cockneys" were acquitted of a string of non-residential burglaries as (one of the jurors was later overheard saying) "Course they did it, but they are such nice geezers ...!)
 
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