butchersapron
Bring back hanging
...ah that good old trot sense of humour shines through yet again...you can't miss it...
what's the *worst* lefty paper?
- Thread starter Pickman's model
- Start date
cockneyrebel
New Member
But SWP leaders have said that RESPECT is not overtly socialist and they are against it being overtly socialist.
Could you explain to me the difference between explicit and overt?!
PS As for humour, I haven't found in general anarchos, liberals or any other people involved in political stuff to be any better......
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
rebel warrior said:
I can't find my print copy of the paper right now, but I would imagine it was only mentioned in passing. Nothing happened in the byelections that was significantly different from the Euro elections. The Lib Dems did well, the Tories did not. Respect repeated its vote in Leicester and lost votes in Birmingham. New Labour did badly. Much the same as a few weeks ago, when we published lengthy and detailed analysis, which you can read at the Socialism Today website:
http://www.socialismtoday.org/85/britain.html
rebel warrior said:
Missing the point as usual. The campaign stood to raise its profile and the profile of the issue, something they achieved. We supported their decision to stand (and stood down for them) because we take a position in favour of encouraging groups of workers involved in a struggle to add a more political dimension to their fight. I realise that the SWP don't understand that there is more to involving workers in politics then rigging up a front and ordering them to step aboard, but we do.
That means that when the SWP used the Socialist Alliance to stand against the Campaign Against Tube Privatisation because they were under the delusion that they could get Paul Foot on the London Assembly, they were acting in a sectarian manner. It means when they used the SA to stand against a Hackney Shop Stewards candidate they were acting in a sectarian manner. It means that when they tried to bully tenants activists in Southwark into standing as SA candidates they were acting in a sectarian manner. And yes, when they try to force workers and other left forces to stand aside for Respect they are also acting in a sectarian manner.
It comes down in all of these instances to failing to understand that independent working class political activity is worth more than votes in a byelection. Particularly in the case of votes for Respect, where the only attraction of its candidate is her religious conversion. If Respect had done better than just repeating its Euro vote and had actually won the election on the basis of a religious communal appeal and that would not have been a "breakthrough" for socialists or for working class politics in any sense.
rebel warrior said:
Because the SLP were making exactly the same sectarian mistake as the SWP, despite the fact that they were standing on a socialist platform. Something that can't be said for Respect.
rebel warrior said:
Of course not. And polling 14% or so across Coventry doesn't make a mass workers party either or the guts of 6% across Dublin. For that matter, the Scottish Socialist Party isn't a mass party. Neither can you have a "left alternative" that gather support chiefly on the basis of religious conviction.
Of course nobody in the Socialist Party or in the Save Our Schools campaign deludes themselves into thinking that we have a mass party of the working class. The same can't be said for SWP and Respect members with regard to Respect and religious conviction though. The idea that a member of a supposedly "Marxist" organisation would describe the Respect platform as socialist almost beggars belief. Its as if words lose all meaning to you.
So again:
Anything to say about Respect voting to keep the SLP off hustings?
rebel warrior
Soca Warrior
cockneyrebel said:
Well, given 'Respect are the new cockney rebels' - (see this weeks socialist worker) I would have thought you would have been able to tell me this.
Still, it looks like it is dictionary time again for some on U75.
Overtly - Respect is not overtly socialist, it does not come across at first sight as socialist, if it was, it would be called something like - Respect: The Socialist Unity Coalition. See?
Explicitly - It is actually a socialist party as the letter S in RESPECT stands for socialism. Do you see this now CR?
As for Nigel - no, your paper afaik did not cover leicester or brum byelections which was interesting. One wonders what would happen if Respect wins the council election this evening in Tower hamlets or does very well - will it be airbrushed out as well? One suspects that would be the case...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
"Explicitly - It is actually a socialist party as the letter S in RESPECT stands for socialism. Do you see this now CR? "
That's a rather loose and broad definition of socialism RW - anyone that claims they are is it? This makes Labour a socialist party - are they? If not, surely the claim that because the word soclialism is included in official titles or constitiutions is enough to define a party as socialist falls - as does your claim above. You'll have to find some other basis on which to argue that RESPECT is explicitly socialist.
That's a rather loose and broad definition of socialism RW - anyone that claims they are is it? This makes Labour a socialist party - are they? If not, surely the claim that because the word soclialism is included in official titles or constitiutions is enough to define a party as socialist falls - as does your claim above. You'll have to find some other basis on which to argue that RESPECT is explicitly socialist.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
rebel warrior said:
One suspects that you've been talking to Chris Nineham rather too much recently. Or maybe to the grandson of Sir Richard M. Lyon-Dalberg-Acton, 2nd Baron Acton of Aldenham and Maria Anna Ludmilla Euphrosina von und zu Arco auf Valley.
As for whether or not we will cover a council by-election in Tower Hamlets, I'd be surprised. We don't often cover council by-elections where there is no working class or socialist force standing.
rebel warrior
Soca Warrior
Point taken butchers.
Why respect is explicitly socialist: From what 'We stand for' (Respects founding decleration):
Implies democratic collective control instead of private profit...surely that is good enough to test whether Respect is socialist?
Why respect is explicitly socialist: From what 'We stand for' (Respects founding decleration):
Implies democratic collective control instead of private profit...surely that is good enough to test whether Respect is socialist?
rebel warrior
Soca Warrior
Nigel Irritable said:
The candidate is a PCS branch secretary ie a leading trade unionist. Surely he is a working class candidate Nigel?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Brilliant RW! 
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
rebel warrior said:The candidate is a PCS branch secretary ie a leading trade unionist. Surely he is a working class candidate Nigel?
Well you might pull that little confused smiley face at me, RW. The candidate could be a coal mining, whippet eating, horny handed son of toil and it wouldn't make the organisation he is standing for a socialist or working class force. Unless you think that the various trade unionists who have stood for the Tories over the years make the Conservative and Unionist Party into the cutting edge of working class politics too?
Ever get the feeling you are arguing with the kid in the class who eats crayons?
rebel warrior
Soca Warrior
If it only implicitly implied Socialism it would not have the S standing for Socialism. As it does, that explicitly implies that Respect is socialist.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Even better!
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
, keep digging RW
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Worst papers ever:
EPSR - still homophobic, as wel las idiotic and unreadable
Living Marxism - or rathger dead moralism. Just shite in every way. Tho very profesionally laid out shite.
New Worker (I think thats the name of the ICP one, ultra-stalinist WRP splinter)
EPSR - still homophobic, as wel las idiotic and unreadable
Living Marxism - or rathger dead moralism. Just shite in every way. Tho very profesionally laid out shite.
New Worker (I think thats the name of the ICP one, ultra-stalinist WRP splinter)
rebel warrior
Soca Warrior
Nigel Irritable said:
Yes - but since when have Tories stood such working class candidates that have been so proud of the fact in their literature that they have led strike action etc, and are proud to be trade unionists? If all their candidates were such working class fighters I doubt they would still exist as the Tory party to be frank...
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
As this seems to have turned into the "any random stuff you are thinking about thread", rebel warrior detailed perusal of the socialist may well have revealed to him the good news that... the SLP's only councillor has joined the Socialist Party.
rebel warrior
Soca Warrior
Nigel Irritable said:
Eh? Talk about changing the subject when you are caught out talking shit...
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
rebel warrior said:
And if all Respect's candidates were such working class fighters, rather than say privatisating councillors or religious converts, then I doubt they would still exist as Respect to be frank...
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
belboid said:
Yes. I think he joined the SLP on a first-thing-you-see basis combined with an admiration for Scargill. He wasn't best pleased about the Stalin stuff.
And RW, I have some tasty crayons for you.
Crayon munching
It is clear from RW'spost and most of the recent SWP literature on the subject thaty socialism is not a political force that is a guide for action by the oppressed masses in the world, but it is simply a letter, one of other letters that you can use as a buzz word. RW claims that RESPECT is implicitly socialist because one of the letters in its name stands for Socialism. Great.
He then backs this up with a quote from their founding, ahem... manifesto... that is about as vague as you can get. A perfect sentence constructed to appease SWP members and their hangers on whilst not offending liberals, monarchists and whoever else is involved in your political party, sorry... coalition.
It is insulting that socialists, workers and revolutionaries have died, and indeed are dying for the principles, politics and ideas of revolutionary socialism, for the politics of Marx, Engles, Lenin and Trotsky, whereas some revolutionary groups in the UK think they can take the entire tradition, strip it of all its revolutionary content, stick it in parliamentary elections, claim they can change the world from westminster and say they are still standing by their principles. Hey at least the S stands for socalism, right?!
BTW the funniest quote form Marxism has to be the Callinicos one when he argued with Albert. A comrade told me that Albert accused Leninists of being stuck in the past and having no new ideas, Callinicos comes back and says -
"No, look at the writings of Marx, Lenin and Trotsky, you will not find anything like RESPECT in any of their works." No comrade, but try reading Stalin!
It is clear from RW'spost and most of the recent SWP literature on the subject thaty socialism is not a political force that is a guide for action by the oppressed masses in the world, but it is simply a letter, one of other letters that you can use as a buzz word. RW claims that RESPECT is implicitly socialist because one of the letters in its name stands for Socialism. Great.
He then backs this up with a quote from their founding, ahem... manifesto... that is about as vague as you can get. A perfect sentence constructed to appease SWP members and their hangers on whilst not offending liberals, monarchists and whoever else is involved in your political party, sorry... coalition.
It is insulting that socialists, workers and revolutionaries have died, and indeed are dying for the principles, politics and ideas of revolutionary socialism, for the politics of Marx, Engles, Lenin and Trotsky, whereas some revolutionary groups in the UK think they can take the entire tradition, strip it of all its revolutionary content, stick it in parliamentary elections, claim they can change the world from westminster and say they are still standing by their principles. Hey at least the S stands for socalism, right?!
BTW the funniest quote form Marxism has to be the Callinicos one when he argued with Albert. A comrade told me that Albert accused Leninists of being stuck in the past and having no new ideas, Callinicos comes back and says -
"No, look at the writings of Marx, Lenin and Trotsky, you will not find anything like RESPECT in any of their works." No comrade, but try reading Stalin!
rebel warrior
Soca Warrior
WP member said:
Forget chewing on crayons mate, you need something far more potent to chew on!
Fucking right-deviationist.Nigel Irritable said:
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
WP member said:
What's this "Callinicos" business. Show the man due respect. That's Alexander Lyon-Dalberg-Acton, to you or Alexander von und zu Arco auf Valley if you qualify as a friend.
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