What's the score with Scotland then?

[geminisnake]

from a perspective this far south, I find this hard to comprehend...

From a Scottish perspective I find this hard to comprehend as well but both parties(imo) have become so strongly anti SNP and anti independence they have gotten together in quite a number of councils in the last decade

I am disgusted to have a Tory MP for the first time since the 70s. I have only seen one comment from the 'other side' and apparently that person thought it was time for a change. I had to scroll quickly before I wrote so you voted for more food banks, more austerity, more people getting treated like shit, etc. I will never understand a Tory voter


I think the SNP lost Angus because there was a big red/blue tory merger on the vote and because the local SNP are/were tartan tories who implemented cuts to services. The councillors deserved to get kicked out, Mike Weir didn't

 

[1%er]

It's a pint that thinks its a quart

 

[Sue]

I have to say I'm finding it ... interesting ... to have Scottish politics explained to me by people who've never taken any interest in it before and who therefore have an ... unusual take on events.

Not that you have to live here to be take a view, but I'm seeing overnight "experts" on social media who seem to have developed that expertise by undergoing a brain-ectomy.

After that poll showing a slim lead for independence, everyone and their granny down here (London) became an expert in Scottish politics, despite in the main being seemingly unaware the referendum was even happening up to that point.

Umpteen people (who'd once gone to Edinburgh for a long weekend or something) explained the pros and cons to me at length.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm sure hitherto unrecognized scholars of the 6 counties' politics and history will be showing themselves soon, given this DUP lash up

 

[redsquirrel]

Has anyone got any stats showing the percentage vote for each party in England, Wales, Scotland and NI?

Wiki has a page for each
Wales
Lab 48.9%
Con 33.6%
PC 10.4%
LD 4.5%
UKIP 2.0%
Grn 0.3%

Scotland
SNP 36.9 %
Con 28.6 %
Lab 27.1 %
LD 6.8 %
UKIP 0.2 %
Grn 0.2%

NI
DUP 36.0 %
SF 29.4 %
SDLP 11.7 %
UUP 10.3 %
All 7.9%

Strangely the England be doesn't seem to working ATM.

 

[redcogs]

The social circle that i move in (within North East Scotland) is largely comprised of conservative comfortably off, older local (Scottish) people. They are overwhelmingly opposed to a further Independence Referendum. During the campaign i was very often an isolated anti Tory (English!) voice for change and Independence, but there have been no recriminations or strained friendships as a consequence of those exchanges - the opposite really. i'm aware of one pair of 'dog walking friends' in the area who can no longer get along due to Independence differences, but that is the exception as far as i can tell. Tory high command mythologising of a divisive debate was just self serving and unsubtle tripe as far as i can tell, not even shared by grass roots Tory voters.

i make no claim to expertise BTW, just recording my experience.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm at the in-laws, and so not able to get a Scottish paper. So I've got the Guardian. Here's an example of the brain dead nonsense. This is in the Guardian:

"The most effective part of the Tory surge came in Scotland, where they won more seats from the SNP than from Labour".​

Labour had 1 seat before Thursday, the SNP 56. There are 59 seats in Scotland. How would the Tories take more seats from Labour in that scenario?

The paper doesn't say that "the Labour surge also took more seats from the SNP than from the Tories". But that's just as applicable and just as vacuous.

 

[mwgdrwg]

Has anyone got any stats showing the percentage vote for each party in England, Wales, Scotland and NI?

Wales percentages.






Labour 48.9

Conservative 33.6

Plaid Cymru 10.4

Liberal Democrat 4.5

UKIP 2.0

Green Party 0.3

 

[planetgeli]

Strangely the England be doesn't seem to working ATM.

England.

Conservative 45.6

Labour 41.9

Lib Dem 7.8

UKIP 2.1

Green 1.9

Others 0.8

United Kingdom general election, 2017 - Wikipedia

 

[geminisnake]

I'm at the in-laws, and so not able to get a Scottish paper. So I've got the Guardian. Here's an example of the brain dead nonsense. This is in the Guardian:

"The most effective part of the Tory surge came in Scotland, where they won more seats from the SNP than from Labour".​

The SNP were the only party with mair than one seat, of course they were going to fecking lose some!! I HATE the gaurdian, it spouts shite about so many things it knows nothing about
​

 

[pennimania]

I'm at the in-laws, and so not able to get a Scottish paper. So I've got the Guardian. Here's an example of the brain dead nonsense. This is in the Guardian:

"The most effective part of the Tory surge came in Scotland, where they won more seats from the SNP than from Labour".​

Labour had 1 seat before Thursday, the SNP 56. There are 59 seats in Scotland. How would the Tories take more seats from Labour in that scenario?

The paper doesn't say that "the Labour surge also took more seats from the SNP than from the Tories". But that's just as applicable and just as vacuous.

Talking of Scottish Papers..


sorry I haven't done that quite right but you get the picture

 

[Shechemite]

1-0 atm

 

[Kaka Tim]

in answer to the OP - right now its 2-1.

eta - 2-2.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Well?

All that bluster and it turns out that it is the Scots who have saved the Tories' bacon.

Why? Cos they want Brexit? Cos sas fiddled the system?

Was hinted that the Tories and Labour were finished in Scotland, but they are not?

What's going on there?

A bit of an outbreak of common sense.

 

[equationgirl]

A bit of an outbreak of common sense.

Wondered when you were going to show.

Don't think it's common sense to vote in a party that would cut all benefits to zero, given half a chance. A party that has all but destroyed the manufacturing base in Scotland whenever they are in power. A party that is privatising the NHS.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

This film by John Harris from the 2015 GE campaign is a good place for people outside Scotland to start:

The strange death of Labour Scotland – video

Thanks

From that video, the labour (ex) MP they followed seemed to be aligned to the Catholic community on his patch

How sectarian is the whole thing in Scotland? The lines in N Ireland politics are fairly clear on that front. Is there something in Scottish politics as well?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm at the in-laws, and so not able to get a Scottish paper. So I've got the Guardian. Here's an example of the brain dead nonsense. This is in the Guardian:

"The most effective part of the Tory surge came in Scotland, where they won more seats from the SNP than from Labour".​

Labour had 1 seat before Thursday, the SNP 56. There are 59 seats in Scotland. How would the Tories take more seats from Labour in that scenario?

The paper doesn't say that "the Labour surge also took more seats from the SNP than from the Tories". But that's just as applicable and just as vacuous.

That's just a subbing error (a bad one). That second 'from' should have been deleted.

 

[LiamO]

What's the score with Scotland? Two each.

You Jammy English bastards!

 

[LiamO]

Wiki has a page for eac

NI
DUP 55.6 %
SF 38.9 %
SDLP 11.7 %
UUP 10.3 %
All 7.9%

Strangely the England be doesn't seem to working ATM.

Nor does norn iron. Those figures add up to 124.4% FFS

 

[equationgirl]

Thanks

From that video, the labour (ex) MP they followed seemed to be aligned to the Catholic community on his patch

How sectarian is the whole thing in Scotland? The lines in N Ireland politics are fairly clear on that front. Is there something in Scottish politics as well?

This is my experience and others may report differently.

Sectarianism appears largely confined to football, but there is no doubt orange marches have an effect on the city. I have stood waiting for one to pass through the city centre and you can feel the air crackling with fear and hatred.

I Have previously had to caution colleagues to be nonsectarian in business meetings, thankfully some years ago now, and many companies have worked very hard to remove sectarian behaviour from the workplace (many companies would not hire catholics even within the past 20 years).

I'M not aware of parties like the DUP having a power base in Scotland but a partnership between them and the tories could change that.

 

[equationgirl]

Plus it's largely confined to the west of Scotland Puddy_Tat, rarely experienced anything sectarian in my many years in Edinburgh (annual Orange March through the city centre, festival tourists in August more of a problem) and nothing in Aberdeen.

 

[redsquirrel]

Nor does norn iron. Those figures add up to 124.4% FFS

The link does, I misplaced % of votes and % of seats when I copied them.

Correct now

 

[danny la rouge]

Thanks

From that video, the labour (ex) MP they followed seemed to be aligned to the Catholic community on his patch

How sectarian is the whole thing in Scotland? The lines in N Ireland politics are fairly clear on that front. Is there something in Scottish politics as well?

It's complicated. Like equationgirl says, the effect is mainly in the West of Scotland (which is a term meaning the Glasgow end of the Central belt, and not the West Highlands). Although my extended family is from the West of Scotland, I grew up outside that area with an identifiably Catholic name and I nevertheless remember snidey casual sectarianism in everyday speech, like a recently mown lawn being referred to with satisfaction "there that's more Protestant looking", or my art teacher saying I used a lot of green because I was Irish (which I didn't think of myself as being), and so on. Employment, health and class also have strong correlations to Irish Catholic backgrounds. I can't link to studies now, but they're out there.

It's widely reported that in 2015 Glasgow had more Orange Marches than Belfast and Derry combined. But I don't know the truth of the figure.

Historically, in the West of Scotland, the SNP was more associated with the Protestant working and middle classes. But that has changed over the years. In my own experience, people with Catholic sounding names are likely to have voted Yes. The correlation between Protestants and No is less clear.

The Orange Order is very small in Scotland, but likes to talk up its importance. It claimed a lot of Labour and Tory Unionist councillors elected in May were members or supporters, but the actual figure turned out to be lower than 10.

In areas like Coatbridge and Airdrie the Catholic working class always voted Labour for decades. That connection has now been broken, as the film showed.

I have to drive back home today so I'll be on the road all day. This post doesn't really cover the long and convoluted history, but I hope it gives you a taster.

People from the East of Scotland will no doubt be able to fill in their experiences.

 

[Sue]

I grew up in the West of Scotland, outside the Central Belt and with an Irish surname. There was some casual sectarian stuff banded about but absolutely nothing compared to what friends in Glasgow and round about experienced.

It was pretty widely accepted though that certain workplaces wouldn't hire Catholics including, allegedly, at that time the local council. No idea how true that was and my brother now works for the council so if it was true, that's changed.

My parents were both from Edinburgh and grew up in an immigrant area (mainly Irish and Italian). Again, job/housing stuff and general anti-Irish/Catholic discrimination.

 

[weepiper]

I grew up in the far south east (about 25 miles east of Edinburgh) with a Catholic English dad and a Protestant Scottish mum (or at least that was their family background, neither of them was practicing anymore but my maternal grandparents were Kirk Elders and my paternal grandparents had a crucifix on the bedroom wall, my dad was an altar boy and my Nan was always doing her rosary and so on). I don't think it's accurate to say it's only a west coast problem, it's just a bit less in your face in the east. There were certainly regular orange marches in Haddington when I was growing up and I remember Ian Paisley coming to shout at the Taigs every year at the Whitekirk Pilgrimage which was a non-denominational church event (he objected to it because Catholics were allowed). You don't have to go very far west at all to find kerbstones painted red white and blue and union jacks in the gardens of the small town housing estates even now (just into West Lothian). It's more blatant the further over you go - I remember being in Carluke taking my kids to a playpark a few years ago and literally seeing heads snap round to stare when I shouted the boys over ('Patrick! Daniel!') and that was something I hadn't experienced before. It definitely does colour the politics but not as much as in Northern Ireland.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Wondered when you were going to show.

Don't think it's common sense to vote in a party that would cut all benefits to zero, given half a chance. A party that has all but destroyed the manufacturing base in Scotland whenever they are in power. A party that is privatising the NHS.

Only the most rabid, isolationist xenophobes would consider voting for the Scottish Nationalists. They have done nothing at Westminster, and as I predicted, people realise this. They are now fucked, thankfully. The vile woman in Bute House is on record as saying (Well, she was on record as saying that the independence referendum was a 'once in a generation event', but lied) she will not ask permission to hold another referendum unless she knows she can win, and the populace have given their answer. 13 Scottish Tory MPs, what a kick in the ego that was for Sturgeon.

Edited to add:

I'm in Heidelberg, posting from a bloody laptop, so typing as little as possible, I'll be home Friday next, more then.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I grew up in the far south east (about 25 miles east of Edinburgh) with a Catholic English dad and a Protestant Scottish mum (or at least that was their family background, neither of them was practicing anymore but my maternal grandparents were Kirk Elders and my paternal grandparents had a crucifix on the bedroom wall, my dad was an altar boy and my Nan was always doing her rosary and so on). I don't think it's accurate to say it's only a west coast problem, it's just a bit less in your face in the east. There were certainly regular orange marches in Haddington when I was growing up and I remember Ian Paisley coming to shout at the Taigs every year at the Whitekirk Pilgrimage which was a non-denominational church event (he objected to it because Catholics were allowed). You don't have to go very far west at all to find kerbstones painted red white and blue and union jacks in the gardens of the small town housing estates even now (just into West Lothian). It's more blatant the further over you go - I remember being in Carluke taking my kids to a playpark a few years ago and literally seeing heads snap round to stare when I shouted the boys over ('Patrick! Daniel!') and that was something I hadn't experienced before. It definitely does colour the politics but not as much as in Northern Ireland.

Sectarianism is a stain on Scotland's character. To my sorrow, I haven't really seen it diminish since I was a boy. It is maybe a bit less public now, but still there.

 

[Sue]

Only the most rabid, isolationist xenophobes would consider voting for the Scottish Nationalists.

So at least 37% of the Scottish electorate and many of the Scottish posters on here are 'rabid, isolationist xenophobes'? Nice.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Thanks for the insights.

Other than the little that reaches the London media, my only direct experience of scottish politics was briefly sharing a flat with someone who i knew in advance was a rangers supporter. what was not clear until i'd lived there a while was that he was also orange lodge, bnp and at least had sympathies for one of the n ireland 'loyalist' paramilitary groups (and was a massive cunt with a fairly sketchy idea of domestic hygiene)

 

[equationgirl]

Thanks for the insights.

Other than the little that reaches the London media, my only direct experience of scottish politics was briefly sharing a flat with someone who i knew in advance was a rangers supporter. what was not clear until i'd lived there a while was that he was also orange lodge, bnp and at least had sympathies for one of the n ireland 'loyalist' paramilitary groups (and was a massive cunt with a fairly sketchy idea of domestic hygiene)

HE sounds delightful...