What's the score with Scotland then?

[danny la rouge]

The feeling from some of my Scottish friends was that the referendum was quite damaging to Scotland turning friend against friend and everyone was quite bitter at the end of it.

This, with all due respect, is the line the Tories have been banging hard ever since September 2014. It's what Ruth Davidson wants to be true, because it's what she depends upon for her profile.

But it isn't true. "Everyone" was not bitter. Friends were not "turned against friends". What happened was a debate and a vote. It was the most politically engaged I've ever seen the population and I enjoyed it, as did the vast, vast majority. I felt disappointment when Yes lost, but not bitterness. The only bitterness I saw was from a very few highly ideological Unionists who thought the debate shouldn't have happened. But even most No voters in my personal experience enjoyed the debate. And most of my friends were No voters, like the country.

It's a funny thing to win a referendum and then report that you feel bitter about it. But that's what the Tories are doing. For their own ends. Interesting that you should use their narrative.

 

[danny la rouge]

Let's just blame England then.

If you want someone to blame for voting Tory, I'd blame people who voted Tory.

 

[Tankus]

Politically bipolar picts ...

 

[danny la rouge]

danny la rouge Sasaferrato equationgirl weepiper

I'm not in Scotland at the moment, but I take it you're asking why there are 13 Tory MPs?

It's worth remembering that there has long been a myth that "there are no Tories in Scotland". People saying it seem to be confused about the difference between Tory MPs and Tory voters. It's true that since the early 90s there have been fewer Tory MPs in Scotland than would be the case if we had PR, but the Tory people were always there.

I live in Stirling constituency. It's been Tory, Labour, and more recently SNP. But but that was only for 2 years. Mostly it was Tory or Labour.

This time, for reasons you'd need to ask him, the local CLP vice chair publicly called for people to vote Tory to get the SNP out. A Labour member.

The SNP high tide of 56 out of 59 MPs was a freak that was never going to be maintained. So some of those were always going to go back to Labour or Tory or even Lib Dem. But I suppose to demoralised Labour activists used to being the dominant force that looked like it would never happen.

At the local council level, the council here had gone Tory to Labour and back for years before the STV system came in. Since then coalitions were the norm. The last council here was a Labour-Tory coalition, with Labour being the senior partner. But at the elections in May Labour's number of councillors was halved. They are now in coalition with the SNP, who are the senior partner in that arrangement.

So to local Labour activists it looked like Labour were disappearing. But they were counting representatives ( Councillors, MPs) not votes. So it was an illusion.

The situation we now have for Westminster representation is far more realistic. It's still the SNP's second best showing ever. But the other parties now have a handful of seats each. The surprise is that people find that surprising.

 

[danny la rouge]

The SNP had one job. Just one. They fucked us over again.

In what way?

What was their job? How did they fuck us over before? How did they fuck us over this time?

Not saying the SNP hasn't fucked anyone over. Just wondering what exactly you mean by your statement.

 

[danny la rouge]

5 minutes ago we were all going to be fleeing to Scotland to escape everlasting Tory rule in reactionary England
now Scottish people are supposed to be to blame for the Tory government lol

Exactly.

The people to blame for voting for 318 Tory MPs are the people who voted for 318 Tory MPs. Not "Scotland" not "England" not anyone other than the people who did it.

 

[mwgdrwg]

Scotland elected 13 Tories. England and Wales elected 315 of them. Fuck off is this our fault.

"England and Wales" is not one country.

Wales elected 8 Tories, don't blame us ffs!

 

[danny la rouge]

"England and Wales" is not one country.

Wales elected 8 Tories, don't blame us ffs!

I think you missed her point.

 

[spanglechick]

I wonder how many yes voters wanted nationalism because they felt an effective leftist Labour Party in the uk could never happen again.

When corbyn was elected leader I did question (on Facebook, I think) whether it was viable for labour to convert SNP voters, and I got the impression that he stood no chance of doing so.

I should say - while I support Scottish nationalism from its own perspective, id rather the Scottish people continued to want to be part of the uk. I'm pretty firmly of the desire to live in a country with lots of cultural influences, with the influence of Scotland and wales being key to that.

 

[redcogs]

The situation we now have for Westminster representation is far more realistic. It's still the SNP's second best showing ever. But the other parties now have a handful of seats each. The surprise is that people find that surprising.

i'm sure this is right, and it certainly accords with my experiences. We moved to the Moray Firth from northern England ten years ago, just at the moment when the SNP's ascendancy was being properly cemented into Scotland's 'body politic'. i had some slight awareness (from books) of the political history of the region, which had been strongly Tory through most of the 20thC, until 1974 when a SNP breakthrough occurred. The Labour Party in the area hadn't really featured in a significant way through the same period.

Small c conservatism is a well entrenched feature of this fishingfarmingtourism constituency, and that characteristic has once again prevailed, delivering the seat for the Vermin Party, having been SNP for a decade .. my take on the reasons behind this relate, to an extent, to some significant SNP failures to deliver improvements in health and education. Local schools for example, struggle to recruit, and getting a doctors appointment commonly requires a three or four week delay (seriously)! Such insidious problems no doubt combined with the not insignificant political resistance to another Independence referendum. But the ground was already fertile for a reversion to actual Conservatism.

 

[mwgdrwg]

I think you missed her point.

No I got the point. Not Scotland's fault in any way.

e2a I just hate the concept of a place called "England and Wales". Like we're a fucking afterthought or an extension of England. It's everywhere and it pisses me off. Not that tweepiper meant anything by it of course, just the way Wales will always be seen until we get independence.

 

[danny la rouge]

i'm sure this is right, and it certainly accords with my experiences. We moved to the Moray Firth from northern England ten years ago, just at the moment when the SNP's ascendancy was being properly cemented into Scotland's 'body politic'. i had some slight awareness (from books) of the political history of the region, which had been strongly Tory through most of the 20thC, until 1974 when a SNP breakthrough occurred. The Labour Party in the area hadn't really featured in a significant way through the same period.

Small c conservatism is a well entrenched feature of this fishingfarmingtourism constituency, and that characteristic has once again prevailed, delivering the seat for the Vermin Party, having been SNP for a decade .. my take on the reasons behind this relate, to an extent, to some significant SNP failures to deliver improvements in health and education. Local schools for example, struggle to recruit, and getting a doctors appointment commonly requires a three or four week delay (seriously)! Such insidious problems no doubt combined with the not insignificant political resistance to another Independence referendum. But the ground was already fertile for a reversion to actual Conservatism.

Yup. You arrived just as the SNP had become the party of government in Holyrood.

What people seem to have forgotten is than in the 2010 Westminster election, the SNP achieved only 6 seats. So their 56 in 2015 was a phenomenon. Scotland only has 59 seats.

The anomalies are caused by FPTP and distribution of voters. It's arithmetic illiteracy to suppose there were no Tories one year and suddenly hundreds of thousands the next.

 

[danny la rouge]

No I got the point. Not Scotland's fault in any way.

No, that isn't the point either.

Not all Catholics are guilty of Ian Brady's crimes. Not all English people agree with Richard Littlejohn. Not all bald people made Phil Collins records. And only people with beards in Spain have beards in Spain. It's not hard.

(And, speaking for myself anyway, if I say England and Wales I don't necessarily mean "England-and-Wales". For example I have been on holiday to Ireland and Portugal in the last couple of years. I don't think they are one continuous country).

TL;DR - a lot of people who don't realise how nationalist they are are being disturbingly nationalist.

 

[weepiper]

 

[Puddy_Tat]

a Labour-Tory coalition

from a perspective this far south, I find this hard to comprehend...

 

[danny la rouge]

from a perspective this far south, I find this hard to comprehend...

The Scottish Labour Party are, how can we put this for people outside Scotland, not receptive to Corbynism.

Some of the Scottish electorate, however, are.

Unionism versus pro independence does not neatly fall into support for one party or another. People voting Labour might be pro independence. People voting SNP might not necessarily be. It's best to remember the electorate is not the party.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

The Scottish Labour Party are, how can we put this for people outside Scotland, not receptive to Corbynism.

is Scottish Labour still Blairite then, or is it more pre-Blairite?

 

[danny la rouge]

is Scottish Labour still Blairite then, or is it more pre-Blairite?

McTernanite.

 

[danny la rouge]

That was an vast over simplification, but I was feeling glib.

 

[danny la rouge]

This film by John Harris from the 2015 GE campaign is a good place for people outside Scotland to start:

The strange death of Labour Scotland – video

 

[Gromit]

This, with all due respect, is the line the Tories have been banging hard ever since September 2014. It's what Ruth Davidson wants to be true, because it's what she depends upon for her profile.

But it isn't true. "Everyone" was not bitter. Friends were not "turned against friends". What happened was a debate and a vote. It was the most politically engaged I've ever seen the population and I enjoyed it, as did the vast, vast majority. I felt disappointment when Yes lost, but not bitterness. The only bitterness I saw was from a very few highly ideological Unionists who thought the debate shouldn't have happened. But even most No voters in my personal experience enjoyed the debate. And most of my friends were No voters, like the country.

It's a funny thing to win a referendum and then report that you feel bitter about it. But that's what the Tories are doing. For their own ends. Interesting that you should use their narrative.

I ain't been to Scotland in over 30 years. I wasn't exposed to the Tory narrative.

I did however have friends after the referendum saying well that was unpleasant. Divided the country etc.

Sounds like the torries jumped on the narrative and kept it going, spun it out, used it, exaggerated it or whatever to great effect is what you are saying. Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[danny la rouge]

I ain't been to Scotland in over 30 years. I wasn't exposed to the Tory narrative.

I did however have friends after the referendum saying well that was unpleasant. Divided the country etc.

Sounds like the torries jumped on the narrative and kept it going, spun it out, used it, exaggerated it or whatever to great effect is what you are saying. Wouldn't surprise me.

Sounds like you have Tory friends. You have my sympathy.

 

[pogofish]

The feeling from some of my Scottish friends was that the referendum was quite damaging to Scotland turning friend against friend and everyone was quite bitter at the end of it.

If there was one thing I took from the whole Indyref campaign, it was just how both sides largely managed to remain civilised and respectful to each other in Scotland.

The whole "families rent-asunder"/"brother against brother" thing was normally spouted from safely south of the border by ignorant English/Anglos with their own axe to grind!

The only incident of any sort that I came across involved a drunk English shitstirrer, who was treated pretty well despite his actions.

 

[Sue]

I grew up in a town in a rural area of Scotland. We always had a Tory MP until it went Labour in 1997 by a small margin. It went SNP in 2015 and is now Tory again.

The boundaries between that and a couple of neighbouring constituencies changed a fair bit in 2005 I think -- two were traditionally Tory and one Liberal. The neighbouring constituency -- which takes in part of what was previously my constituency -- was before this election the only Tory seat in Scotland.

There's always been a substantial rural/farming area Tory vote. And in this area, indyref will have made a big difference, bigger than Brexit certainly.

It was one of the biggest No areas -- it's near the border -- and I can absolutely believe there was a huge amount of tactical voting for a unionist ie non-SNP candidate and that would've been the Tory. And remember, a lot of Labour supporters voted SNP last time for various reasons despite being unionists.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's complicated but I wasn't surprised the Tories picked up seats.

 

[danny la rouge]

If there was one thing I took from the whole Indyref campaign, it was just how both sides largely managed to remain civilised and respectful to each other in Scotland.

I have many friends who voted No. We had many debates and discussions about it. We are still friends. We actually enjoyed the discussion.

This idea that having different opinions is "divisive" and "poisonous" is a bit troubling, really. What are people saying? That we should all have the same opinion and if we don't have the majority opinion, keep it to yourself?

Sounds more like a recipe for totalitarianism than democracy.

 

[inva]

Exactly.

The people to blame for voting for 318 Tory MPs are the people who voted for 318 Tory MPs. Not "Scotland" not "England" not anyone other than the people who did it.

I expect a rejuvenated Labour Party chauvinism will have plenty more of this sort of thing to look forward to

 

[Sue]

As my sister was saying last week, 'when did it all get so complicated? There used to just be Labour and the Tories and you'd never vote Tory so..'

(She's a no remainer btw and I think voted Green because she hates the SNP, thinks Scottish Labour are useless, the Lib Dems scum and would never vote Tory. She used to vote SSP. )

 

[editor]

Has anyone got any stats showing the percentage vote for each party in England, Wales, Scotland and NI?

 

[quimcunx]

Just to add to the indyref anecdata. We had different opinions in my family. My dad has been SNP since the 50s. Billboards on our roof when I was a kid etc. This was probably his last chance to vote for independence. But he said to my sister 'what do you want me to vote? It's the young ones that have to live with the results, not us' My sister said that whatever the outcome they would be fine and he should have his vote for independence. Hardly a family ripped apart by indyref.

 

[danny la rouge]

I have to say I'm finding it ... interesting ... to have Scottish politics explained to me by people who've never taken any interest in it before and who therefore have an ... unusual take on events.

Not that you have to live here to be take a view, but I'm seeing overnight "experts" on social media who seem to have developed that expertise by undergoing a brain-ectomy.