Whats the best way to deal with the BNP?
- Thread starter Grandma Death
- Start date
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
what fucks me off is the way this question's presented, as though it was an either/or situation. the truth of the matter is that - as in any campaign - a range of tactics have to be employed to achieve the strategic goal. whacking a few bnp here or there won't on its own do the trick. working on their internal contradictions and exposing them won't do the trick. but by both strands, and others, happening at the same time might.
the main difficulty "mainstream" (ie uaf) anti-fascism has, is its links to the labour, tory, lib dem parties and swp. this makes it easy for the bnp to shrug off their attacks, and in the case of the recent egging to portray all their main opponents as acting in concert against them. given the feelings aroused by the parliamentary parties, they no longer have credibility among the majority of the population. their attacks on the bnp if anything have fuelled, and continue to fuel, the bnp. although the bnp remain a minor party, treating them as a greater threat than they are encourages people to see them as a viable alternative.
everyone knows the bnp are racist. but the bnp are very good at both hiding this, and making it appear a slur. looking at what the bnp do in the areas where they have experienced councillors, like barking & dagenham, they put a great deal of effort into genuine community projects such as doing up an rspca vet's. their work on propaganda like that and on bread and butter politics which good councillors of all parties have done for years projects not an aura of danger but the sort of traditional values many people would like to see come back. continuing playing the race card under such circumstances is bloody stupid.
but the race issue remains one which liberals and politicians of all stripes seem obsessed with. recent stories about a new equality bill shows how little the labour party understands the bnp.
given that the majority of bnp voters are either disillusioned labour voters or live in working/under class labour areas which have been forgotten by the labour party. the development of the new political class identified by peter oborn has seen large numbers of people dislocated from the labour party. labour's utter inability to do anything positive for these people over the last twelve years has effectively delivered them to the bnp.
if the bnp is to be dealt with, a genuine reconnection between the labour party and their traditional constituency would, i believe, do the trick: if there is the will for it. however, this remains in the realm of fantasy while the labour leadership refuses to acknowledge the new labour project an abject failure. and as so many people's careers depend on the continuation of this blindspot, it is unlikely to occur in the near future. the establishment of a new party to regain the ground formerly occupied by the labour party would take time, time in which the bnp are likely to strengthen their grip on the large numbers of people who either support them or are apathetic about politicians of all hues.
it seems to me that the bnp are perhaps their own worst enemies. it will be interesting to see how long the bnp are able to maintain the anti-party party image which has stood them in such good stead. the factionalism which has for many years plagued british fascist parties may be dormant within the bnp - they seem to have successfully put the sadie graham affair behind them - but there's no guarantee that the bnp will see this unfortunate state of affairs continue. the absence of any realistic alternative to griffin is probably the cause for this. however, the readmission of out and out national socialists like tess culnane to the party is likely to increase internal stresses. and it will be interesting to see how long intelligent members like arthur kemp remain in the fold - it's recently been reported that he may move to the us in the future, removing one of the most important senior members from the scene. equally, while many people join the bnp each year, a similar number depart the scene. the quality of the membership is very variable. it will be difficult for the bnp to put forward several hundred credible candidates for the general election. and if something happens to nick griffin like it did to jorg haider, the absence of a successor may see the bnp fall apart.
so the issue's more complex than many people on this thread have suggested. internal and external forces exert an influence on the continued success - or otherwise - of the bnp. another factor which may affect the future direction of the bnp is the way other fascist groups operate. demonstrations like the recent march for england in luton may lead to a return to the streets if large numbers take to the streets - the bnp won't want to be outflanked. but the task at hand is to continue harassing the bnp at every turn and on a range of fronts. so: it remains important to employ a diversity of tactics and not become a one-trick pony.
the main difficulty "mainstream" (ie uaf) anti-fascism has, is its links to the labour, tory, lib dem parties and swp. this makes it easy for the bnp to shrug off their attacks, and in the case of the recent egging to portray all their main opponents as acting in concert against them. given the feelings aroused by the parliamentary parties, they no longer have credibility among the majority of the population. their attacks on the bnp if anything have fuelled, and continue to fuel, the bnp. although the bnp remain a minor party, treating them as a greater threat than they are encourages people to see them as a viable alternative.
everyone knows the bnp are racist. but the bnp are very good at both hiding this, and making it appear a slur. looking at what the bnp do in the areas where they have experienced councillors, like barking & dagenham, they put a great deal of effort into genuine community projects such as doing up an rspca vet's. their work on propaganda like that and on bread and butter politics which good councillors of all parties have done for years projects not an aura of danger but the sort of traditional values many people would like to see come back. continuing playing the race card under such circumstances is bloody stupid.
but the race issue remains one which liberals and politicians of all stripes seem obsessed with. recent stories about a new equality bill shows how little the labour party understands the bnp.
given that the majority of bnp voters are either disillusioned labour voters or live in working/under class labour areas which have been forgotten by the labour party. the development of the new political class identified by peter oborn has seen large numbers of people dislocated from the labour party. labour's utter inability to do anything positive for these people over the last twelve years has effectively delivered them to the bnp.
if the bnp is to be dealt with, a genuine reconnection between the labour party and their traditional constituency would, i believe, do the trick: if there is the will for it. however, this remains in the realm of fantasy while the labour leadership refuses to acknowledge the new labour project an abject failure. and as so many people's careers depend on the continuation of this blindspot, it is unlikely to occur in the near future. the establishment of a new party to regain the ground formerly occupied by the labour party would take time, time in which the bnp are likely to strengthen their grip on the large numbers of people who either support them or are apathetic about politicians of all hues.
it seems to me that the bnp are perhaps their own worst enemies. it will be interesting to see how long the bnp are able to maintain the anti-party party image which has stood them in such good stead. the factionalism which has for many years plagued british fascist parties may be dormant within the bnp - they seem to have successfully put the sadie graham affair behind them - but there's no guarantee that the bnp will see this unfortunate state of affairs continue. the absence of any realistic alternative to griffin is probably the cause for this. however, the readmission of out and out national socialists like tess culnane to the party is likely to increase internal stresses. and it will be interesting to see how long intelligent members like arthur kemp remain in the fold - it's recently been reported that he may move to the us in the future, removing one of the most important senior members from the scene. equally, while many people join the bnp each year, a similar number depart the scene. the quality of the membership is very variable. it will be difficult for the bnp to put forward several hundred credible candidates for the general election. and if something happens to nick griffin like it did to jorg haider, the absence of a successor may see the bnp fall apart.
so the issue's more complex than many people on this thread have suggested. internal and external forces exert an influence on the continued success - or otherwise - of the bnp. another factor which may affect the future direction of the bnp is the way other fascist groups operate. demonstrations like the recent march for england in luton may lead to a return to the streets if large numbers take to the streets - the bnp won't want to be outflanked. but the task at hand is to continue harassing the bnp at every turn and on a range of fronts. so: it remains important to employ a diversity of tactics and not become a one-trick pony.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Jesus, blast from the past! Are you the original PM??
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
yes
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Aha, what made you return?
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
some cunt played a filthy trick on me. i remembered i was never in fact banned - having instead asking miss minnie to delete my account. so i thought i'd give this place a try again. given my progress through the registration process, it seems the important people're happy with that. and here i am, older, wiser, more vindictive than ever and happy to see that some old acquaintances still remember me. and that i irritated pk so much that he was still discussing me nearly three years after i left.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Well, glad you're back mate. We didn't always see eye to eye but I remember meeting you briefly at the curry night years back and thinking you were a decent bloke. Hope things are going well with you offline etc.
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
cheers! all well!
This is from a poster on a local fora, unlike a fair few posts, i think this is genuine, not a BNP plant:this is what the left and civil society will have to respond to, not more fucking concerts.
BA, i will distribute your article in my local area if I agree with it
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
While I agree the person there has grievances, I'd like to know how they know the immigration status of the people over the road? I'm pretty sure that asylum seekers don't get housed in that manner.
Can anyone tell me how they usually get housed? Pigeon?
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Asylum seekers aren't entitled to council housing, accommodation is usually provided by private sector landlords. The BNP are notorious for going around estates telling people "the council are giving all the housing to immigrants/refugees/asylum seekers/teh asians/any convenient object of bigoted hatred" causing all sorts of shit in the process.
That some anonymous fucknut with an internet connection (who may or may not be a BNP sockpuppet) repeats such crap doesn't really tell us anything.
http://theleftluggage.wordpress.com...ology-and-the-rise-of-the-far-right/#more-513
Left Luggage have done some digging about the BNP election results and the background of the BNP voters, they make for interesting reading and demolish some current 'truths' about the election results and the demographics, motivations.
Left Luggage have done some digging about the BNP election results and the background of the BNP voters, they make for interesting reading and demolish some current 'truths' about the election results and the demographics, motivations.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Yeah, I thought that was the case. Cheers.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Asylum seekers get fuck all here. The way they have been almost criminalised by a Labour government should be a source of shame to us all.
Prince Rhyus
Spokesman of King Antonio
It's got to go beyond silly student union satire aimed at posters on CIF, and it's got to go beyond "ooh, dem BNG-ers iz dem nazeez and ooh!"
Let the likes of Bremner, Bird and Fortune lampoon their policies as they stand.
The commentosphere seems to be full of people saying that the UAF tactics are alienating the very people who they want to support the anti-BNP cause. Weyman Bennett and Martin "should have gone to specsavers" Smith's recent outings in the media haven't helped.
I agree with the second part of your post - the time to get serious about the issues that people are concerned about. The problem is, the political class doesn't seem to want to find out from the people what their issues are. Hence why part of the solution needs to be politicians from all parties going back into communities (or what's left of them) and asking people what their concerns are and then building/developing policies through the prism of whatever their political philosophies/principles/values (if they have any) are.
Lots of people didn't vote for a myriad of reasons. How much of that is due to accessibility? How much is due to lack of knowledge? How much is due to crap candidates? How much is due to other stuff?
Say what you like about Hazel, but she was right about the need to get back into the dirty work of canvassing. The problem her and the Westminster elite have is that they don't seem to respond to the feedback that they get back. It's too easy for big business to influence the system and too difficult for the rest of us.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Indeed.
The best way to deal with liars is usually stick to the truth.
The Left needs to tell the truth on immigration,crime and the welunfare state.
That will undercut the support for the BNP.
The BNP are a bunch of sad misfits. But what does it say about all of us to the Left of Labour that they have so much more electoral support than any party to the Left of Labour ( no not including the Greens or Lib Dems)
The BNP have managed to build a coalition of diagruntled people from their core swastika loving nutjobs to soft racists who feel betrayed by the main parties.
Their policies on crime and controlling immigration have much widerspread support than they will ever get. The Left needs to stop ignoring the views and aspirations of the majority of people if they are ever to properly counter the BNP.
The Left needs to tell the truth on immigration,crime and the welunfare state.
That will undercut the support for the BNP.
The BNP are a bunch of sad misfits. But what does it say about all of us to the Left of Labour that they have so much more electoral support than any party to the Left of Labour ( no not including the Greens or Lib Dems)
The BNP have managed to build a coalition of diagruntled people from their core swastika loving nutjobs to soft racists who feel betrayed by the main parties.
Their policies on crime and controlling immigration have much widerspread support than they will ever get. The Left needs to stop ignoring the views and aspirations of the majority of people if they are ever to properly counter the BNP.
And yet you seem to have dedicated your life to slagging off the organisation that does this least.
Talk about getting things out of all proportion. If your talking about the IWCA, I state what i know and i state my opinions. Why is that such a problem?
The IWCA should not be above criticism any more than any other left group. The Lefts collective failure to look at their own individual failures, stops them from having success.
People on here who continue to push the IWCA and say how their strategy has been proved right all along need to look at the failings of the organisation if they seriously want to have more of an impact.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Part 3 is up, and we're working on ways of getting them to various people and organisations.
We've had some early success with a friend in another org asking Andrew Brons one of the questions on this BBC prog.
We'll be publishing part 4 next week, and will continue to highlight it's impact.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So, you're using hard-right tory boy Jonathan Bartley to undermine them? They are so fucked now.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Nice attitude. He picked up on it and asked one of our questions, we'll 'use' anyone who can get these questions in front of Griffin etc on tv ideally. The point is these questions get asked, and the answers documented, that journalists are briefed properly rather than missing opportunities to take the BNP apart in interview.
I should be clear, I don't believe this is the 'best way to deal with the BNP' because I don't think one strategy or tactic is perfect.
I really can't be bothered with this wanky Urban75esque political tactics snobbery. Doesn't serve any useful purpose and is a waste of energy imo.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
You have got it in for the IWCA though haven't you?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Nor does thiis bollocks. There was a seperate thread about this program on sunday unaware of this question being asked, the question wasn't even noticed. It didn't make an impact. It won't, beyond you lot letting each other know you've got one over on the BNP snigger snigger. Other things did.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=292343
And don't post up stuff if you don't want comments.
NO NO AND NO.
I would like to see the IWCA grow. I think there are some really positive things about the IWCA but that doesnt mean they are beyond criticism.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Who said I didn't want comments? It'd be nice to get some actual thoughtful ones but snide is what snobs like you are all for. You have no clue about how campaigns are started and run do you? Like I said in the bit you chose to ignore, I don't think any one tactic is perfect. And am not presenting this as the 'answer'.
So what great work have you undertaken that has proved so effective against the BNP then Butchers?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's not part of the answer at all.
That's it then is it - discussion over unless i show that over the ten years that the BNP has grown i've perosnally turned back time and made it not happen? Grow up.
That's it then is it - discussion over unless i show that over the ten years that the BNP has grown i've perosnally turned back time and made it not happen? Grow up.
You don't offer any criticism though, just what seem to be vague personal gripes.
The difference between you and the IWCA is that they have taken the trouble to canvass opinion as to what people see as priorities and attempt to campaign around these, while you post up lists of personal preferences on the internet and claim that these are 'the aspirations of ordinary people.' You have no means of attempting to carry out what you say you favour and never will have.
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