What's so great about Nelson Mandela?

[rachamim18]

Isitme: I am quite serious. Mandela steered the ANC from passive non-violent resistance to terrorism of the bombing ilk and that is absolutely vile. The man has repudiated his previous investment in violence but the damage is done. He caused many innocents of all races to die horrible and needless deaths. He did it on purpose. There is no statute of limitation on murder. Ergo...


CIA: "He was a strong and moral leader..." who blew up babies. BRAVO.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Rachamin, speaking as a Commie, I would kindly invite you to fuck off this thread and never come back. Seriously. Fuck off. Urban doesn't need unthinking morons like you.

 

[theCIA]

Isitme: I am quite serious. Mandela steered the ANC from passive non-violent resistance to terrorism of the bombing ilk and that is absolutely vile. The man has repudiated his previous investment in violence but the damage is done. He caused many innocents of all races to die horrible and needless deaths. He did it on purpose. There is no statute of limitation on murder. Ergo...


CIA: "He was a strong and moral leader..." who blew up babies. BRAVO.

well i think some of the tactics, maybe not all, were justified. i dont think they targeted babies specifically but guerrilla war can be ugly.

 

[ska invita]

Isitme: I am quite serious. Mandela steered the ANC from passive non-violent resistance to terrorism of the bombing ilk and that is absolutely vile. The man has repudiated his previous investment in violence but the damage is done. He caused many innocents of all races to die horrible and needless deaths. He did it on purpose. There is no statute of limitation on murder. Ergo...

CIA: "He was a strong and moral leader..." who blew up babies. BRAVO.

I sympathise with that analysis - whether you think it was morally justifiable (I dont), murder failed as an effective strategy - Mandela landed up in jail, and frankly being a locked-up terrorist isn't that hard a thing to be - the world is full of political terrorists.

In the end the overthrow of apartheid was primarily nonviolent and required the fortitude, stamina and discipline of normal people (not politicians) to truly win out - certainly not Mandella, whose release was utterly symbolic. Mandela's rising from the tomb secured Mandelas as the next prime minister, and gave the ANC a carte blanche. This in turn, it would seem, allowed the poeple to get stung by what the ANC went on to become: a neo-liberal nationalist bunch of lightweights, with Mandela at the fore.

I take the point that as the first president of the RSA he helped keep things cool - having de Klerk as his deputy was an act of profound reconciliation, and all credit to him for that. But ultimately his party is a failure and his terrorist activities were a failure.

 

[isitme]

well I disagree with the death penalty in all cases

but especially someone of such symbolic importance as mandela

 

[rachamim18]

Itisme: Opposition to the death penalty is soemthing altogether different and I will not hijack the thread to go off on that tangent.

Ska: Absolutely.

LittleBaby: Uh, no thank you but thanks for thinking of me!

CIA: "Guerilla War can be ugly.": Guerilla War can also target armed combatants. Noone would condemn him, at least I would not, for incurring collateral damage. However, his aim, which he achieved of course, was to sow indiscriminate violence without regard to a specific demographic. The idea generally is to instill a loss of confidence in the powers that be and to then , hopefully, turn the power base against the power.

In theory it is sound. In reality it is heinous and aside from that it almost never succeeeds. For example, everytime an Arab sets off another so called "Suicide Bomb," more and more leftists rush to the hard right in Israel. That is not even getting into what it does as far as further polarisation of the existing right!

Guerilla War can carry a moral imperative and adhere to it as closely as possible. Mandela on the other hand , purposefully aimed ot incur civilian casualties.


Of course they did not target babies sepcifically. Neither did they not specifically omit them. THAT is the distinction that needs to be addressed. Had hs instead directed his followers to utilise violence against hard targets, that is targets with clar relation to the state, one could possibly rationalise his actions in an acceptable way. Had they aimed only for military and authoritarian targets that would have been even better. Instead he simply said "F It" and went for blind violence and that is not only irrational, it is criminal under International Law.

The man is a criminal, plain and simple.

 

[Fedayn]

Mandela WAS a bloodsucking fool who is responsible for many inncoent deaths and for causing alot of misery for S. Africans of every background.

While incarcerated it was he who changed the ANC's direction from passive non-violent resistance to violent terrorism. ANC bombs and other armed actions killed many inncoents from every demographic in the nation.

That said, it is quite possible for people to change their views, and for individuals to do the same. Mandela later renounced this violence but soem argue that damage done is never repaired. I tend to think that this is not always true, and offer respect where I find it due. I find that Manderal did an admirable job in the post-Apartheid era buty promoting the Conciliation Committees as well as asking Afrikaners and other whites to stay in the new S. Africa.

Still, I feel he is a leech who did much more harm than good. Good acts do negate heinous acts and certainly do not feel his later admirable acts should absolve him of all crimes he committed. Murder has no statute of limitations under International Law, nor in any nation I am aware of. I would love to see him tried and hung (sure this will elicit lots of love from various U75ers). Before they start barking I would suggest they try to imagine how the survivors of the poor people blown up by his ideology feeel. Would they, had they lost children or spouses, be so approving of the man?

Why am I not surprised in the slightest by what you wrote here?!

 

[888]

Britain was until 1945 a plutocracy, ruled by a restricted wealthy upper class.

Luckily we have Socialism now...

 

[888]

Mandela is the single most important reason there was not a bloodbath at the end of apartheid. Great enough for ya?

Why's that a good thing?

 

[EddyBlack]

Luckily we have Socialism now...

We did, the Labour party was important in disrupting that society and offering a choice to the masses. I don't think we ever entirely left the plutocratcic society, but I think the trend now is moving back towards it.

 

[theCIA]

Itisme: Opposition to the death penalty is soemthing altogether different and I will not hijack the thread to go off on that tangent.

Ska: Absolutely.

LittleBaby: Uh, no thank you but thanks for thinking of me!

CIA: "Guerilla War can be ugly.": Guerilla War can also target armed combatants. Noone would condemn him, at least I would not, for incurring collateral damage. However, his aim, which he achieved of course, was to sow indiscriminate violence without regard to a specific demographic. The idea generally is to instill a loss of confidence in the powers that be and to then , hopefully, turn the power base against the power.

In theory it is sound. In reality it is heinous and aside from that it almost never succeeeds. For example, everytime an Arab sets off another so called "Suicide Bomb," more and more leftists rush to the hard right in Israel. That is not even getting into what it does as far as further polarisation of the existing right!

Guerilla War can carry a moral imperative and adhere to it as closely as possible. Mandela on the other hand , purposefully aimed ot incur civilian casualties.


Of course they did not target babies sepcifically. Neither did they not specifically omit them. THAT is the distinction that needs to be addressed. Had hs instead directed his followers to utilise violence against hard targets, that is targets with clar relation to the state, one could possibly rationalise his actions in an acceptable way. Had they aimed only for military and authoritarian targets that would have been even better. Instead he simply said "F It" and went for blind violence and that is not only irrational, it is criminal under International Law.

The man is a criminal, plain and simple.

im quite young so my view might not be quite the same as that of older generations, but the average white south african has nothing but respect for mandela. it is quite strange, now that i think about it, because i dont think any other struggle icons get the same respect.
i do share your view about targeting civilian targets, but you are wrong to say "he simply said "F It" and went for blind violence", the anc was always open to negotiations.

 

[rachamim18]

Fedayn: How in the world am I supposed to know why or why not you are suprised at anything? Perhaps the next post will be about the thread and not Rachamim?

CIA: No, the ANC was not always open to negotiations. Once at Robin for a few years Mandela wass though and others follwoed his lead. I probably mentioned by now that the other Robin internees were going to villify Mandela for negotiating until he sent back a message and asked for their patience ("I am talking so they will talk to you").

What he did post-Aparthied discertainly admirable and in the wake of M'beki thank G-D in terms of the HIV/AIDs dynamic but it still will never erase his earlier crimes.

 

[frogwoman]

rachamim i'm sorry to be rude but please get the fuck off this thread and shut the fuck up. thank you. you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when it comes to south africa and i find your opinions on the subject disgusting.

as for nelson mandela, there are indeed some criticisms to be made of him and the ANC as an organisation in general, and i certainly dont regard everything he has done post apartheid as being fantastic

i know one person who worked in mandela's government who said all he was interested in was having a party and the whole atmosphere was too relaxed for everyones good, and he also thought that mbeki was much more of a better leader - this was a few years ago, though

my dad hates mandela for various reasons - although he isnt in favour of apartheid or deny the legitimacy of their struggle

 

[nino_savatte]

Mandela WAS a bloodsucking fool who is responsible for many inncoent deaths and for causing alot of misery for S. Africans of every background.

While incarcerated it was he who changed the ANC's direction from passive non-violent resistance to violent terrorism. ANC bombs and other armed actions killed many inncoents from every demographic in the nation.

That said, it is quite possible for people to change their views, and for individuals to do the same. Mandela later renounced this violence but soem argue that damage done is never repaired. I tend to think that this is not always true, and offer respect where I find it due. I find that Manderal did an admirable job in the post-Apartheid era buty promoting the Conciliation Committees as well as asking Afrikaners and other whites to stay in the new S. Africa.

Still, I feel he is a leech who did much more harm than good. Good acts do negate heinous acts and certainly do not feel his later admirable acts should absolve him of all crimes he committed. Murder has no statute of limitations under International Law, nor in any nation I am aware of. I would love to see him tried and hung (sure this will elicit lots of love from various U75ers). Before they start barking I would suggest they try to imagine how the survivors of the poor people blown up by his ideology feeel. Would they, had they lost children or spouses, be so approving of the man?

More smears. Once again, I see you make accusations without any supporting evidence.

 

[danny la rouge]

Oh dear, rach, you are an idiot. I was quite ready to be critical of Mandela's post apartheid record, but I find you have drawn the battle lines too clearly for me to take up that theme now.

 

[bluestreak]

Jesus fuck, rachamin is absolutely fucking bonkers. someone report that post for the love of god.

 

[nino_savatte]

Jesus fuck, rachamin is absolutely fucking bonkers. someone report that post for the love of god.

I've already reported it.

 

[david dissadent]

This involved training and advisory roles and I happened to travel to the former nation of Rhodesia and so got to see things close up (Rhodesia being worse than Apartheid S. Africa of course). The point though is that they would actually weed out any dark skinned amojng us and prohibit us from deploying because of sensibilities down there and if you think this did not cause alot of hatred within the IDF (and elsewhere) you are far off course.

Funnily enough I have a Rhodesian war veteran in the office with me right now and he has utterly no recolection of any Israeli involvement or training. The old UDI era Rhodesian army was tiny, and like all armies it is very gossipy and no Rhodey I have ever spoken too has ever brought up any connection with Israel.

As for the dark skinned bit, hmmmm. Stunningly unlikely. South Africa had a very large Jewish and a slightly smaller Lebanese community and many other Mediteranian immigrants. They never had trouble being recognised as being white.

There was a strong connection between Apartheid era South Africa and Israel, as there was between those countries and Taiwan and Chile. Having said that there was a certain amount of co-operation between RSA and our old mucker Saddam in Iraq. Many of the pariah states in the 80s had a large illitic market of technologies flowing between them. This however would never have had much to do with individual soldiers, it would have been technichians, diplomats and bussiness people wheeling and dealing away.

Your claims about being in Rhodesia during the war however put an age on you, at least 46. You would have needed to be 18 in 1980. Although more likely no one would have sent a recruit to Rhodesia, it would have been a longer standing, better trained member. So you are probibly having to be pushing 55.

As for Rhodesia worse than RSA. FAIL. Total fail. During UDI era Rhodesia a small minority of blacks had the vote, there was no formal laws like the group areas act or the various racial hygene acts. Rhodesia never really came close to the grand Apparheid era Verwoerd.

 

[Fedayn]

Fedayn: How in the world am I supposed to know why or why not you are suprised at anything? Perhaps the next post will be about the thread and not Rachamim?

Well with Israel being a rather friendly and co-operative friend of RSA during apartheid i'm not surprised. It isn't that difficult even for a foaming bigot like you surely?!

 

[editor]

Still, I feel he is a leech who did much more harm than good.

Funny how the vast majority of the word's stage disagree with your frothing hate-filled rant, isn't it?

Here's just a short extract from the list of awards, honours and other recognitions bestowed on Nelson Mandela.

1998
* Received Honorary Doctoral Degree from the University of South Australia, University of Fort Hare, 23 April
* Awarded Honorary Doctorate, University of Zululand, 30 May
* Awarded the Freedom of the City and County of Cardiff, Cardiff, 16 June
* Awarded the Chris Hani Award at the 10th National Congress of the South African Communist Party, Johannesburg, 1 July
* Awarded Honorary Degree by the University of Mauritius, 11 September
* Awarded Honorary Doctorate by Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 18 September
* Awarded Congressional Gold Medal, Washington, 23 September
* Appointed Honorary Companion of the Order of Canada, 24 September.[16]
* Nelson Mandela public school named in his honour in Toronto.
* Presented with Award in Recognition of his Contribution to Democracy, Human Rights and Freedom by the Supreme Council of Sport in Africa, 19 November
* Created a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Norwegian Order of St Olav by the King of Norway.

1999

* Received the Deutscher Medienpreis, Baden-Baden, Germany, 28 January
* Awarded the Oneness-Peace Earth-Summit-Transcendence-Fragrance Award, Pretoria, 9 March
* Received the Golden Medal of the City of Amsterdam, Netherlands, 10 March
* Received honorary doctorate from Leiden University, Netherlands, 12 March
* Awarded the Freedom of the City of Durban, Durban, 16 April
* Received Honorary Doctorate from the Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, 30 April
* Received Ukraine's Highest Decoration, the Order of Prince Yaroslav the Wise, Cape Town, 5 May
* Appointed Honorary Companion of the Order of Australia, Canberra, 9 June
* Received Jesse Owens Global Award, Johannesburg, 21 September
* Received insignia of Honour from the African Renaissance Institute, Johannesburg, 11 October
* Received an Honorary Doctorate of Laws from the University of Botswana, Gaborone, 14 October
* Received the Baker Institute Enron Prize for Distinguished Public Service at Rice University, Houston, 26 October
* Awarded the Freedom of the City of Lydenburg, Lydenburg, 3 November
* Appointed to the Order of Australia on 15 November; presented with the insignia of the order by Australian Prime Minister John Howard in Pretoria.
* Was among 18 included in Gallup's List of Widely Admired People of the 20th Century, from a poll conducted of the American people in December 1999.
* Awarded honorary doctorate from Uppsala University, Sweden, 3 December
* Presented with Temple of Understanding Annual Award to Religious and Political Leaders for Outstanding Service to Humanity, Cape Town, 5 December
* Presented with the Gandhi-King Award by the World Movement for Nonviolence at the World Parliament of Religions, Cape Town, 5 December
* Listed as one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century by Time magazine
* Accepted the Atatürk International Peace Prize from Turkey, after refusing the award in 1992.[17]
* Created Knight of the Dutch/Luxembourgian Order of the Gold Lion of the House of Nassau, Netherlands, 10 March

2000

* The Nelson Mandela National Museum is officially opened in Soweto, 11 February
* Awarded honorary Doctorate of Laws by Trinity College, Dublin, 11 April
* Appointed honorary Queen's Counsel by the House of Lords, United Kingdom, 3 May
* Awarded SABS Gold Medal, Sandton, 10 June
* BT Ethnic Multicultural Media Award, London, 29 June
* Received World Methodist Peace Award, London, 29 June
* International Freedom Award, Memphis, Tennessee, 22 November
* Awarded Honorary Doctorate of Law from the University of Technology, Sydney, Australia.
* Awarded Honorary Doctor of Letters from the Australian National University, 6 September

2001

* International Gandhi Peace Prize, Presidential Palace, New Delhi, 16 March
* Made an Honorary Freeman of Leeds, 30 April
* Made an Honorary Fellow of Magdalene College, Cambridge, 2 May
* Awarded the first King Shaka Award in recognition of bravery, 25 July 2001
* Park Public School renamed Mandela Park Public School, Toronto, Canada, 17 November
* Received honorary doctorate of law from Ryerson University, Toronto, Canada, 17 November
* Granted Honorary Citizenship of Canada, 19 November
* Awarded the LLD Honoris Cause from the University of the Free State
* Awarded the D Tech Education Honoris Cause from the Technikon Free State
* Human Rights Lifetime Achievement award by the SA Human Rights Commission, Johannesburg, 11 December
* Made an Honorary Administrator For A Day at SUNY Binghamton

2002

* Awarded an Honorary Doctorate in Law from Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa, 6 April
* New hall of residence at Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa named 'Nelson Mandela Hall'
* Awarded an Honorary Doctorate by the University of Ghana, 24 April
* Awarded the Franklin Delano Roosevelt Freedom Medal, Middleburg, The Netherlands, 8 June.
* Awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the United States' highest civilian award, by George W. Bush, Washington, USA, 9 July
* Awarded the Queen Elizabeth II Golden Jubilee Medal from Canada.
* Awarded the Order of Mapungubwe - Platinum Category by President Thabo Mbeki, Union Buildings, Pretoria, December 2002.[20]

[edit] 2003

* Awarded an Honorary Doctorate in Law by the National University of Ireland, Galway, 20 June
* Elected an Honorary Life member of the Literary and Debating Society, NUI, Galway.
* Named a Hero of Freedom by the Libertarian magazine Reason.[21]

[edit] 2004

* Sandton Square in Johannesburg, South Africa is renamed Nelson Mandela Square on 31 March with the unveiling of a 6 m bronze statue (see photo, top of page).[22]
* Listed as one of the 100 most influential people of 2004 by Time magazine
* Made a Bailiff Grand Cross of The Order of St John

2005

* Amherst College honorary degree.
* Listed as one of the 100 most influential people of 2005 by Time magazine

2006

* New Statesman - Listed as the number 2 in the 50 "Heroes of our time".
* Awarded Amnesty International's Ambassador of Conscience Award
* Made an honorary member of Manchester United as the club toured South Africa in the winter of 2006.

2007

* The Westminster Council agrees to erect a statue of Mandela opposite the Houses of Parliament in London.[28]
* Honorary citizen of Belgrade, Serbia.[29] "for his huge humanitarian past and contributions to mankind".

2008

* In January 2008, the Europe-based A Different View cited Mandela as one of the 15 Champions of World Democracy. Other champions mentioned were Lech Walesa, Corazon Aquino, and Vaclav Havel.
* Michigan State University LLD honoris causa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nelson_Mandela_awards_and_honours

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It's like going back twenty years. Only, people who were saying "Hang Nelson Mandela" in the 80s mostly keep quiet about it now....

 

[Fruitloop]

Nelson Mandela was the leading member of the anti-apartheid movements who crucially wasn't a socialist, and was thus one of the people that western governments were prepared to deal with.

 

[david dissadent]

Nelson Mandela was the leading member of the anti-apartheid movements who crucially wasn't a socialist, and was thus one of the people that western governments were prepared to deal with.

What do you mean 'was not a socialist'?

 

[kyser_soze]

Anyway, ignoring the twat...

He was a figurehead globally for the anti-apartheid movement, his imprisonment an subsequent conversion to change through peaceful means gave him moral credibility and as Fruity says, unlike some of his fellow ANC travellers, he wasn't a socialist.

He's probably the closest thing the world has had to a hero in the classical mould (I think Aung San Kyii (sp) probably qualifies for this status as well) for decades, and this is where his value still lies. As a human he's just as flawed as any of us, but as a symbol he was a powerful pacifying factor in what could have turned into a very brutal civil war.

 

[kyser_soze]

What do you mean 'was not a socialist'?

He wasn't, certainly not by the time he left Robin Island. He oversaw the privatisation of a number of key infrastructure companies, most notably water supply, during the first black majority parliament, and oversaw what has been describde as the 'second apartheid' - loads of educated blacks piling into lots of good jobs and pulling the drawbridges up and creating a secured m/c that's little different from the white m/c it replaced.

 

[david dissadent]

He was a figurehead globally for the anti-apartheid movement, his imprisonment an subsequent conversion to change through peaceful means gave him moral credibility and as Fruity says, unlike some of his fellow ANC travellers, he wasn't a socialist.

The ANC never renounced its armed struggle till quite late in the game and long after he was released. He did not change his position on armed struggle all through his imprisonment and subsiquent release.

 

[dylanredefined]

Stopped south africa turning into a bloodbath that certainly makes him great .Considering how the south african state treated the Blacks they cant really claim The ANC didnt have a right to fight back .
Have to admit to my shame I swallowed the daily mail lies about south africa in the 80s

 

[Structaural]

However, his aim, which he achieved of course, was to sow indiscriminate violence without regard to a specific demographic. The idea generally is to instill a loss of confidence in the powers that be and to then , hopefully, turn the power base against the power.

Very similar to your country's strikes against Lebanonese civilian districts and Palestinian power stations no? and lets face it the continuing treatment of said Palestinians.
You hypocritical bigot.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think I now understand R18's use of the word communist. He uses it in the American sense - a catch-all term of abuse directed at anybody who does not believe in the absolute sanctity of private property and wealth accumulation. He does not appear to understand that this makes him sound like an idiot.

 

[camouflage]

David: No offence but in talking about "Black Consciousness" you are doing a huge disservice to both actual history AND the various factions of the ANC. The ANC was an umbrella that included not only various black groups but Indians as well as even Jewish , and although not organised into a particular independant faction, even Afrikaners and other "whites."

It was communist in ideology and as such, "Black Consciousness" was merely a tool with which to effect change in increments. The ideologues sought to produce a classless and racelss society (of course that is impossible to do but that is the futility of communist theory).

Ahhh, and then you tell us that it was a not based around race per se, well then why make the first point? It is either Black Nationalist as with so called Black Muslims in America (not to be confused with Muslims who happen to be black of course), or even a more mainstream approach but with black culture as the center of the movement...or it is something else. It cannot be both David.

"To Rachamim, much of the initial training given to the military wing was by an ex-Haganah fighter who identified with the black S. African struggle.": First, Israel as a nation threw a great amount of support behind the Apartheid Regime and this included both military training and arms (the Galil was liscenced and produced there in a slight variant). At the same time Israel also supported various insurgencies throughout the region depending on the shifting alliances of the region.

That an individual from Israel, or the Yishuv (pre-Statehood Israel) would see fit to travel to the region and support revolutionary aims is not a bombshell in the least. We are in Colombia now. We are in Iraq both licitly and as private personel. We are all voer the world because to be frank, we are among the best soldiers in the world. Just as our ancestors were mercs throughout the ancient world, we carry on the tradition. That is neither here nor there.

Israel is like any other nation in that we have people holding a myriad of beliefs and outlooks. In the days of the Yishuv many held hard left views , some still do today although much less, thank G-D. In any event racism is evil, and I have never met a single Israeli (and this is actually true) who ever supported S. Africa's Aparthied policies. Indeed, many Israelis (including my 3 kids there) are dark to black skinned. During Apartheid we were, as I said, tactical allies of the country.

This involved training and advisory roles and I happened to travel to the former nation of Rhodesia and so got to see things close up (Rhodesia being worse than Apartheid S. Africa of course). The point though is that they would actually weed out any dark skinned amojng us and prohibit us from deploying because of sensibilities down there and if you think this did not cause alot of hatred within the IDF (and elsewhere) you are far off course.

So, the point is that we were on both sides of that fence, sadly. That one or a few helped the ANC is regrettable but not suprising.


You claim that he refused to play ball when impriosned and offered various deals. Of course you are incoorect. Surely you are aware that he did take such a deal and was moved to an actual house with all the amentities of modern living. The ANC came close to disavowing him but was waiting until they could confirm his ideological compromise. He transmitted a message to the others on Robin and told them that he "was talking so that THEY could talk." With that message received the impriosned men decided that i was a valid comrpmiseand threw their support behind it.


As for "torutre," he was NEVER tortured and indeed of all men on Robin only 2 claimed to be, and that was before Mandela was ever taken into custody. By the way, the 2 who made the claim have never been able to prove their assertions so it is questionable as to whether or not the Afrikaners were ever stupid enough to torture such high profile detainees.

"Mandela also handed over power when hsi regime passed , unlike other African dictators.": And? Of course I suppose it is admirable given that he is a commie. They are not exactly known for passing the torch. Still, the statement is sad and indicative of how much people need to reach to find something "admirable" about such a person.

Fire: "He never wanted the power...": No offence but that one made me laugh. So why did he take the lead of the ANC? (although while imprisoned he wanted Tambo to serve as the "beard" so as to retain currency and relevance.

Should people who faught against the nazis as resistance fighters also be hung for carrying out 'terrorist strikes'?