Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Is it not?Relahni said:
I'm suspicious of any answer to any problem which thinks the solution is easy but nobody else can see it.
What's Really wrong with English Football?
- Thread starter pagan
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I'm suspicious of any answer to any problem which thinks the solution is easy but nobody else can see it.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
I think it may be difficult to teach them to play well. If it were easy then I rather think people would be doing it already.Relahni said:You think it's difficult to teach kids to play football?
Obviously we need to kill all the paedophiles first so that kids can go and play outside without fear and parental restrictions. And ban cars from residential roads so that they can't run over the jumper goalposts and disturb street games.
And then we need to station Jamie Oliver and a crack team of moralising fatlip twats outside fish and chip shops and other various takeaways, stopping our nascent talent from getting into bad, lardy habits. We also need Supernanny to put the football kids on the naughty step should they prove petulant or not show sufficient dedication. And that Alvin financial advisor bloke to help them with their finances and the value of hard work.
Frankly I don't think it's always the coaching that's at fault. Too many pampered little darlings, lack of focus and too many rewards, too soon.
And then we need to station Jamie Oliver and a crack team of moralising fatlip twats outside fish and chip shops and other various takeaways, stopping our nascent talent from getting into bad, lardy habits. We also need Supernanny to put the football kids on the naughty step should they prove petulant or not show sufficient dedication. And that Alvin financial advisor bloke to help them with their finances and the value of hard work.
Frankly I don't think it's always the coaching that's at fault. Too many pampered little darlings, lack of focus and too many rewards, too soon.
jiggajagga
Judge_Mental
tarannau said:
Fucking ace!!
I think this fails to distinguish between club football and international. In English terms, I think the styles are a long way from each other. Domestic games are played at break-neck speed with a lot of emphasis put on individuals, whereas from what I've seen, on the continent they seem a lot more considered on the ball and not always rushing into the spectacular hopeful. I think the latter style is much more effective at international level, as witnessed from the Croatians, who were superb on the ball and at interlinking with each other. Of the English, only Joe Cole intermitently in the first half looked happy with the ball at his feet and even then he insisted on going directly for their jugular.
There also has to be consideration placed on how many English players have moved to the continent and been a success. David Platt and Chris Waddle are the last two I can think of (Hargreaves wasn't exported from England) and they're a generation ago. Our current crop seem all too happy to stay with the style they know, pick up the blank cheques, and not test themselves. As I said on another thread, Lampard and Gerrard leave most for dust in England, but they look decidedly below average when in an England shirt.
I think we need to clone Michael Carrick eleven times and play him in every position. That'd be revolutionary.
isvicthere?
a.k.a. floppybollocks
At school I was like an England player - i.e. in P.E. lessons I was a sort of Johann Cruyff-meets-Georgie Best, but when I pulled on the school team shirt I always seemed to croak.
I'm not sure how much sarcasm is in what you're implying, but Carrick is one of the English players who's style I think would be much better suited to international than club play. He does seem to have a definite calmness on the ball and isn't afraid to just play the simple pass. If he can learn not to career forward like a man possessed all the time, Joe Cole could also be like that.
Sunray
Its sunny somewhere.
I totally disagree with anyone who says that the English believe we are world beaters every time.
What I'd like to see on the pitch is some spirit and the belief that they were doing the best they could. If we get beaten, we at least they did their best. I watch some of the old games where we played well like Euro 96. Nobody could really fault the performances from each and every one of the players. We lost but had some pride in that loss.
Croatia was a real low moment in that they were hardly even trying. There wasn't a single player on the pitch that wouldn't hold their hands up and say 'shit day'. Yet they go back to their clubs and play well, Gerrard being the one that comes instantly to mind.
People say you can't sack the players. Err, yes you can, don't pick them.
What does this mean? It means that the person that leads them should lead them well. Steve Mclaren wasn't a great leader. He's not proven he's either a great coach or manager and it showed. He tried to show he was boss by picking Scott Carson but that was as much a mistake as leaving David Beckham out. The only player who I thought gave his all.
Normally I am a little wary in thinking that sacking the Manager is a good idea. In this instance I really do think that this sacking was justified.
What I'd like to see on the pitch is some spirit and the belief that they were doing the best they could. If we get beaten, we at least they did their best. I watch some of the old games where we played well like Euro 96. Nobody could really fault the performances from each and every one of the players. We lost but had some pride in that loss.
Croatia was a real low moment in that they were hardly even trying. There wasn't a single player on the pitch that wouldn't hold their hands up and say 'shit day'. Yet they go back to their clubs and play well, Gerrard being the one that comes instantly to mind.
People say you can't sack the players. Err, yes you can, don't pick them.
What does this mean? It means that the person that leads them should lead them well. Steve Mclaren wasn't a great leader. He's not proven he's either a great coach or manager and it showed. He tried to show he was boss by picking Scott Carson but that was as much a mistake as leaving David Beckham out. The only player who I thought gave his all.
Normally I am a little wary in thinking that sacking the Manager is a good idea. In this instance I really do think that this sacking was justified.
SpookyFrank
Don't swallow the cap
RenegadeDog said:
Surely it would be much cheaper to simply field a squad of decomposing llama turds?
Gingerman
Is a great bunch of lads.....
When you have tossers like little Mickey Owen tell all and sundry that no Croatian player would be picked for England,thats whats wrong with English Football.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/11/26/ufnowen126.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/11/26/ufnowen126.xml
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
RenegadeDog said:
Till he realised he wasn't getting Svens money more like.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
jiggajagga said:
I'd be glad if we did turn them down.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
This is getting a bit stupid.
If you look around Europe, no respected coaches/ex players are telling England to go back to the beginning. People in this country can't have any perspective on this. We're either great or we need to start again once it goes wrong.
I think Capello had it spot on in his article in the Spanish papers yesterday - all England lacked was good tactics and the mental toughness to get the result. Or won't people be satisfied till we win a game like that 4-0? We don't need 10 technical wizards, when have Germany ever had them??
Looking at those that did qualify, most of the fancied nations finished second in their group. This and the last World Cup tells me that in amongst the 60 games a season, there is too much pressure on the fancied nations to get results all of the time. And it filters down if Scotlands loss to georgia or Ni undoing alltheir hard work and losing to latvia and Iceland are anything to go by.
If you look around Europe, no respected coaches/ex players are telling England to go back to the beginning. People in this country can't have any perspective on this. We're either great or we need to start again once it goes wrong.
I think Capello had it spot on in his article in the Spanish papers yesterday - all England lacked was good tactics and the mental toughness to get the result. Or won't people be satisfied till we win a game like that 4-0? We don't need 10 technical wizards, when have Germany ever had them??
Looking at those that did qualify, most of the fancied nations finished second in their group. This and the last World Cup tells me that in amongst the 60 games a season, there is too much pressure on the fancied nations to get results all of the time. And it filters down if Scotlands loss to georgia or Ni undoing alltheir hard work and losing to latvia and Iceland are anything to go by.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
Oh and the arrogance thing. Leaving Owens article in the NOTW aside (and he's wrong I'd have the keeper & Eduardo at the very least), the only 2 people I've seen saying England will win the group no problem are Alex McCleish and Charlie Nicholas.
Well, having read the whole thread.. the FA, the players, the arrogance.. the media, the managers, the lack of, the youngster, spoilt..
Well, get out and see some of the youngster play, full 90 minute, full on, and working as a team. From local clubs, to under 21s with league clubs, the extent of the involvement by league clubs at all levels in the local community, with local schools, it might not get a lot of press but it is happening.
Then the FA come alnog and tell everyone they must have certificates before they can become recognised ... watch MOTD and see the number of goals being scored from very similar moves and the pass aross the goal mouth....
But, it does not work at international level... The FA dictate how it should be played... Ok on a Saturday afternoon but .. so predictable. Youknow where the people are going to and the pattern of passing, Watch the national teams, France, Italy....watch the fitnes levels, the skills.. we're sadly lacking.
The kick and run, great...but.
The Managers, any manager who speaks his mind is immediately cast aside.
Why were Clough, Shankly, Paisley, for example , never offered the job?
The FA want yes men who, supposedly , have a plan for the younger player... yer right
The media, McClown was appointed under pressure from the media, and the FA swallowed and appointed the wrong man. The media have created themselves as a power and nobody, except for Venables, has bothered to get them onside.
Solution.... Klinsman... why, he has a devoted team of specialists, he stays in the States, ( The FA don't like that) and organises the complete team experience, from individuals needs, fitness levels, diets, analyses and tests, and applies the knowledge to the best advantage. Worked well with germany.... He ws given a fixed term contract, no sillies, completed his contract and said thank you very much, it's all set up you don't need me any more...swoosh.. back to the states.
Just as a closing observation, the players that were unfit for the international, ... sudden recovery and playing very well for their club,
Hmmmm .
Well, get out and see some of the youngster play, full 90 minute, full on, and working as a team. From local clubs, to under 21s with league clubs, the extent of the involvement by league clubs at all levels in the local community, with local schools, it might not get a lot of press but it is happening.
Then the FA come alnog and tell everyone they must have certificates before they can become recognised ... watch MOTD and see the number of goals being scored from very similar moves and the pass aross the goal mouth....
But, it does not work at international level... The FA dictate how it should be played... Ok on a Saturday afternoon but .. so predictable. Youknow where the people are going to and the pattern of passing, Watch the national teams, France, Italy....watch the fitnes levels, the skills.. we're sadly lacking.
The kick and run, great...but.
The Managers, any manager who speaks his mind is immediately cast aside.
Why were Clough, Shankly, Paisley, for example , never offered the job?
The FA want yes men who, supposedly , have a plan for the younger player... yer right
The media, McClown was appointed under pressure from the media, and the FA swallowed and appointed the wrong man. The media have created themselves as a power and nobody, except for Venables, has bothered to get them onside.
Solution.... Klinsman... why, he has a devoted team of specialists, he stays in the States, ( The FA don't like that) and organises the complete team experience, from individuals needs, fitness levels, diets, analyses and tests, and applies the knowledge to the best advantage. Worked well with germany.... He ws given a fixed term contract, no sillies, completed his contract and said thank you very much, it's all set up you don't need me any more...swoosh.. back to the states.
Just as a closing observation, the players that were unfit for the international, ... sudden recovery and playing very well for their club,
Hmmmm .
Gmart
Well-Known Member
It occurs to me that tho people might say that our kids don't have the skill, but that's got to be rubbish. I think that they have the skill but they are not encouraged to use it for fear of losing the ball and getting grief from their mates in the team and the manager.
Furthermore, we have an attitude in theis country that football is a rough game and our refs don't protect our players anything like as much as they do in the rest of Europe.
I know that diving is a problem, and we should expand the refs report to include an account of the diving problem from game to game, based on video evidence. If every ref had this information they would bear it in mind when dishing out cards, and they would be able to dish out cards to divers more safely.
So, more protection for our players, like they get elsewhere.
But I suspect people will reject this idea, saying that it IS a rough game. Well then you get what you get, if you refuse to protect your players, they WILL play it safe all the time leading to a lack of success.
Furthermore, we have an attitude in theis country that football is a rough game and our refs don't protect our players anything like as much as they do in the rest of Europe.
I know that diving is a problem, and we should expand the refs report to include an account of the diving problem from game to game, based on video evidence. If every ref had this information they would bear it in mind when dishing out cards, and they would be able to dish out cards to divers more safely.
So, more protection for our players, like they get elsewhere.
But I suspect people will reject this idea, saying that it IS a rough game. Well then you get what you get, if you refuse to protect your players, they WILL play it safe all the time leading to a lack of success.
g force
Affects Shatner's Basoon
I agree with this...any outlandishness seems to be coached out. First touch seems to be getting much better but players like Joe Cole have clearly been told to stop the tricks or else and now he's just an average player.
That's why I think England will never produce a Zidane, Ronaldinho or Ronaldo because in lower leagues they'd be chastised as not playing "proper" football. The current England midfield is average - it has superb passers of the ball who can make intelligent runs but lacks any pace to strech a team.
I'd be tempted to try Agbonlahor and Young - see how teams cope with genuine pace attacking them.
That's why I think England will never produce a Zidane, Ronaldinho or Ronaldo because in lower leagues they'd be chastised as not playing "proper" football. The current England midfield is average - it has superb passers of the ball who can make intelligent runs but lacks any pace to strech a team.
I'd be tempted to try Agbonlahor and Young - see how teams cope with genuine pace attacking them.
I agree about joe cole g force, i honestly thought he would at least be the new gazza when he came through.
g force
Affects Shatner's Basoon
I see a lot of what Ronaldo is now doing is what Cole did at WHU....so what the hell happened to him? From what i've seen of him he still has good vision for a pass but no pace to get around people and against quality defences lacks crossing ability.
So if you're not wanting players to do that - and okay they're a luxury because for every Zidane you need a Petit holding the midfield - then the other option is pace. I see none in the England team but plenty in the U21's I've seen - Bentley, Agbonlahor, Young, Lennon.
Combine that with Ronney up front, Gerrard and Barry in midfield and the usual solid defence and I think England could challenge for honours. Although i;ve been saying the same of Spain for the last 3 major tournaments
So if you're not wanting players to do that - and okay they're a luxury because for every Zidane you need a Petit holding the midfield - then the other option is pace. I see none in the England team but plenty in the U21's I've seen - Bentley, Agbonlahor, Young, Lennon.
Combine that with Ronney up front, Gerrard and Barry in midfield and the usual solid defence and I think England could challenge for honours. Although i;ve been saying the same of Spain for the last 3 major tournaments
tommers
Currently in investor / advisor mode.
RenegadeDog said:
yeah, but he never produced anything when he played for us RD. Yeah he could juggle a ball through a defence just on his head, or whatever the story was, but he'd try the tricks and get found out when he was playing in matches. His most effective time with us was in the relegation season when he played as a holding midfielder!
Look at Ronaldo. He still does the tricks but he actually produces stuff at the end of it. I dunno, maybe it's a chelsea thing, maybe if Cole had been at a different club then he would still be trying things...
Gmart
Well-Known Member
g force said:
Well I'd rather have more protection to foster the skill we so evidently lack.
Joe Cole is a good example, he was such a trickster, but not anymore. A good team should be able to stand firm whilst its forward players try something different. Safe in the knowledge that they can defend effectively.
That little bit of magic is exactly what England has been missing in its key losses of recent times.
So more protection from the refs please, we will fix the diving problem with TV evidence if we can...
g force said:I see a lot of what Ronaldo is now doing is what Cole did at WHU....so what the hell happened to him? From what i've seen of him he still has good vision for a pass but no pace to get around people and against quality defences lacks crossing ability.
So if you're not wanting players to do that - and okay they're a luxury because for every Zidane you need a Petit holding the midfield - then the other option is pace. I see none in the England team but plenty in the U21's I've seen - Bentley, Agbonlahor, Young, Lennon.
Combine that with Ronney up front, Gerrard and Barry in midfield and the usual solid defence and I think England could challenge for honours. Although i;ve been saying the same of Spain for the last 3 major tournaments
Bentley is more like beckham than the 'skillful' type player. A cert on the right in the future though as far as I'm concerned.
Lennon/agbonlahor are a different kind of player, they both look exciting noiw but their game is based so much on pace. How long can they exist just on pace?
Spain are pure class on paper (much better than ours (in reality) are), and if they don't at least get out of their (comically easy) group at the Euros I'm going to laugh extremely loud. They are like England squared.
tommers said:
What about that goal he scored against arsenal in THAT 2-2 draw? That was absolute class, and could have been the winner against the unbeaten champions if we hadn't fucked it all up
tommers
Currently in investor / advisor mode.
Gmarthews said:
I kind of see what you're saying but it doesn't really work like that. There are plenty of skilful exciting players in the Prem that seem to survive just fine. Cole hasn't become less tricksy because of being tackled - he's been told to do that at Chelsea in order to fit in with the way they play. Maybe that will even change under Grant, instead of Mourinho, who knows?
Gmart
Well-Known Member
But the game in England is definitely more rough, and thus the fear of injury, combined with the fear of ridicule by your teamates is not going to help is it?
We need to encourage the skilled players to play, and thus we need to protect them surely.
Other players might indeed survive in the Prem, but at what cost to injury? Even Drogba, a tank for Chelsea is injured, and many players come here for a season only to scarper again for fear of injury...
We need to encourage the skilled players to play, and thus we need to protect them surely.
Other players might indeed survive in the Prem, but at what cost to injury? Even Drogba, a tank for Chelsea is injured, and many players come here for a season only to scarper again for fear of injury...
