What's going on on the PCS NEC?
- Thread starter cockneyrebel
- Start date
Prince Rhyus
Spokesman of King Antonio
Well...I'm still finding my feet in this thing - just getting a branch convened was an achievement. (All the posts were uncontested and even then some required a bit of arm-twisting to get people to take on posts.)
We have a large minority of our workforce that is unionised - though of those members perilously few are active. (Something we hope to change with this new structure and more people involved.)
What do I want to represent? One of the first things I would like to do is to listen to members concerns - and find out what issues matter to them rather than to me. I've been in post for less than a fortnight and for a week of that our branch chair has been on leave so there's only so far I've been able to go.
Over here I'm concentrating on local issues rather than national issues to try and raise membership levels because realistically there isn't that much at a local level we can do other than to unionise as much of the workforce as possible. With a low union membership our bargaining position is somewhat compromised
We have a large minority of our workforce that is unionised - though of those members perilously few are active. (Something we hope to change with this new structure and more people involved.)
What do I want to represent? One of the first things I would like to do is to listen to members concerns - and find out what issues matter to them rather than to me. I've been in post for less than a fortnight and for a week of that our branch chair has been on leave so there's only so far I've been able to go.
Over here I'm concentrating on local issues rather than national issues to try and raise membership levels because realistically there isn't that much at a local level we can do other than to unionise as much of the workforce as possible. With a low union membership our bargaining position is somewhat compromised
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Best of luck. One tip is - when there's not many of you, a good first step is to get in touch with people at regional level (or whatever it's called now) so that you can (a) get encouragement and advice ; (b) find out what meetings you're entitled to attend and get to them.
Prince Rhyus
Spokesman of King Antonio
We've formed a regional young members network which we're having a workshop that is taking place in about 3 weeks time. We're getting some support regionally so hopefully our efforts will bear fruit
dennisr
the acceptable face
cockneyrebel said:
Have you read DFs link to the sociaiist? - the SPs actual view on this - as opposed to the one you have been presenting. And read the left unity article you yourself posted. The views of left unity are the significent set of arguments (given they are influencing the approach of a major trade union) you are actually up against and they seem to answer many of the points you are making.
My apologies if you are not actually saying the union leadership should push against the deal as i assumed. Are you saying they should go with it (if they feel the membership are not up for a long drawn out battle as yet) but holding their noses and saying "actually its a really crap deal" to the membership??? The results, for the PCS, are major concessions from the government - as far as i can see - leaving the union in a better position to push future struggles of its members.
as an aside - Cockney, you didn't hold back from your forthright condemnation of the entire SP - i cannot see that some gentle piss taking of what i see as the implications of a daft viewpoint is so personally hurtful, or that you are such a gentle wee flower, petal
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
You are joking, aren't you?!Groucho said:
Where's this tidal wave of red fervour coming from? Because it seems to have passed me by.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Quite. And how many successful strike ballots are won by a convincing turnout of ballot returns - as opposed to a hairline majority of the minority of people who bother to return them?Donna Ferentes said:
cockneyrebel
New Member
I am a gentle wee flower petal! So tread carefully. Actually I remember a nice love poem I read somewhere. Something about the author saying tread carefully because I lay my dreams before you.
Anyway. Yeah I am saying that the SP on the NEC should propose rejecting the deal. What I'm saying though is that the only way this can happen is if the majority of the membership agree. If the membership agree, and the SP leadership is clear about what this will entail, I think action could be taken that was successful. And I don't believe that the PCS would necessarily remain isolated. As said the FBU and even UNISON might well join in.
If the memebrship reject those arguments and vote for the deal, then so what? I don't think that will mean they think the leadership are ultra left nutters and run into the arms of the right wingers. Indeed, as said, I think it will make the leadership more credible in the long run, as the members will see the inevitable negative consequences of the deal in the long run. I know you are saying that more can be done in the future, but it will be far harder with a two tier work force. I also think saying that five years being added on to the working life any new workers if a major set back. And also many current workers won't end up benefitting either as they move jobs. So while there was a partial victory, this deal also represents a severe cut in workers rights and a very possibly a weakening of the union in the long run.
I know what the SP says in the Socialist and what I'm saying is that as such they should be honest with the membership and say what they think. That this deal represents a severe attack on workers rights and the creation of a two tier workforce. And they should be honest that the only way to stop this is to reject the deal and take industrial action.
PS Sorry we still haven't got around to having a pint, I've got a lot on my plate at the moment. But enjoyed it last time, so hopefully I can get myself together some time soon.....
Prince Rhyus
Spokesman of King Antonio
Thank you
I'm trying to work out which training courses I can go on - and trying to encourage other union members to go on them - not least because the skills they can learn from them is good CV stuff. (We've got quite a few younger members on our new exec.)
I'm trying to work out which training courses I can go on - and trying to encourage other union members to go on them - not least because the skills they can learn from them is good CV stuff. (We've got quite a few younger members on our new exec.)
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
cockneyrebel said:
Yeats: "Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths..."
Actually, what would be most dangerous in the scenario you outline above would be if the leadership recommended the rejection of the deal and the ballot was WON but by a small majority - that would leave the union pretty split, potentially isolated and engaged in a battle it was unlikely to emerge from anything but defeated and very heavily demoralised.
At least this way the PCS keeps its powder dry for future battles.
I have just had the opportunity to discuss the pensions issue with Gloria Mills, the President of the TUC. Er....nice woman...head and shoulders above Norman Willis...unfortunately that aint saying much! For one thing she once was a genuine worker who was elected as a shop steward in the print inustry (Mother of Chapel).
She thinks PCS are doing a really good job and that Mark Serwotka is fab. She comes across like a kindly manager and is doing a course in Business studies.
Oh, sorry, pensions. Er well yeah, she didn't say much really. She agrees that future workers should be protected but was quite vague
She thinks PCS are doing a really good job and that Mark Serwotka is fab. She comes across like a kindly manager and is doing a course in Business studies.
Oh, sorry, pensions. Er well yeah, she didn't say much really. She agrees that future workers should be protected but was quite vague
cockneyrebel
New Member
That's the one!
Still makes me well up.....
But if it was won by a small majority then a lot of work would have to be done to try and convince the other members. Obviously it might not work, but that goes for anything.
But now we are left with a deal that will probably weaken the union in the long run by creating a two tier workforce. As well as adding five years on to any new workers working lives.
What is even worse is that the unions had the government over a barrel before the election. And even then the SPers on the NEC recommended calling off the strike. As belboid said, this isn't just about a one off incident.
I really don't get the "being isolated" bit either. Firstly who knows whether other unions will back the PCS up, especially, as said unions like the FBU and UNISON. Also by that logic no union would ever go into industrial action by themselves.
Still makes me well up.....
But if it was won by a small majority then a lot of work would have to be done to try and convince the other members. Obviously it might not work, but that goes for anything.
But now we are left with a deal that will probably weaken the union in the long run by creating a two tier workforce. As well as adding five years on to any new workers working lives.
What is even worse is that the unions had the government over a barrel before the election. And even then the SPers on the NEC recommended calling off the strike. As belboid said, this isn't just about a one off incident.
I really don't get the "being isolated" bit either. Firstly who knows whether other unions will back the PCS up, especially, as said unions like the FBU and UNISON. Also by that logic no union would ever go into industrial action by themselves.
articul8 said:Yeats: "Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths..."
Actually, what would be most dangerous in the scenario you outline above would be if the leadership recommended the rejection of the deal and the ballot was WON but by a small majority - that would leave the union pretty split, potentially isolated and engaged in a battle it was unlikely to emerge from anything but defeated and very heavily demoralised.
At least this way the PCS keeps its powder dry for future battles.
There are dangers in the current deal too. The precedent of selling conditions of future workers provided existing workers are protected is extremely dangerous. In a few years time with a divided workforce we'll say what? Join the union what protected my pension etc but flushed yours down the toilet? A two-tier workforce is a recipe for disaster.
Why is it that we accept that future workers have to be worse off than us? Since WW2 the view has been one of progress. Now we seem to accept that we have to move backwards asnd that the role of the trade union movement is simply to help regulate the destruction of public services to offset the damage.
Guineveretoo
Mostly bewildered
I don't think anyone would disagree with this, but we are in a position where the unions balloted for industrial action on specific issues and where a deal has now been done which actually meets the ballot requirements completely, since no-one was ballotted about the pensions of future workers, and could not have been.Groucho said:
It clearly is the case that PCS has failed to sell the deal to a group of its activists, but I wonder how much of this is because of the party politics within PCS, which I know a lot of members find frustrating and confusing, and how much really is because people feel they have been "sold out". After all, whether you like it or not, your pensions have been protected, so none of you have been "sold out". Yes, this will, potentially, create a "two tier workforce", but those negotiations are by no means over, and, if it does happen, remember that it is the Government/employer who has done it, not the unions!
Please don't forget that PCS have been pushing for retirement age of 65 for many years. Which is why I sought to clarify the difference between retirement age and pension age.
I don't think anyone is accepting that it is okay for future workers to be on worse terms and conditions. I merely think the unions have been put in a position where, in fact, they got what they were asking for, and were somewhat wrongfooted, since they were convinced that the fight just for this protection would take a lot longer!
Guineveretoo said:I don't think anyone would disagree with this, but we are in a position where the unions balloted for industrial action on specific issues and where a deal has now been done which actually meets the ballot requirements completely, since no-one was ballotted about the pensions of future workers, and could not have been.
To be accurate the PCS ballot was for i. National Pay Negotiations ii. No compulsary redundancies iii. No deteriment to pensions/pension age.
I think you will find that my analysis has been somewhat other than to cry 'sell-out'. I have accepted that for the PCS NEC the choice was difficult and that the NEC members who voted for the deal did so with the best intentions. (But were wrong)
It is of course the case that when unions were offered a delay in implimentation, thus protecting only older existing workers it was PCS that held the line. The other unions would have settled.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
I thnik the bottom line for me is that I don't remotely believe there was any chance whatsoever of a strike given the deal on offer. In those circumstances it's not the case that you can ask for one anyway, without losing any credibility with the members: people don't like that stuff.
Donna Ferentes said:
This is the issue. Whether we could have convinced all workers to stand together despite some groups being offered a relatively good deal in the short term. If we can never achieve this then we will always be fucked over because employers and Govt. need only to opt for a divide and rule strategy. At what point do we try to stop the rot?
The Defra dispute does, in fact, take such a stand in uniting workers in agencies and core Defra even though core Defra have relatively decent pay rates. Union reps were very nervous about going ahead and have been very heartened by the response -
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=7641
I believe that workers in the public sector do see a generalised offensive and want to see a generalised response. That if unions had held the line in the way I described above that workers would have responded positively. You believe otherwise.
I further believe that, even though the task is made much harder following the bulk of the union's acceptance, that PCS should have taken a stand to attempt to stop the rot. I now think that activists in all unions need to set down a clear marker. Otherwise PCS will always rely on Prentis, Prentis will always back down and we will always be shafted. It is time to appeal for unity across unions over the heads of the backward TU leaders.
We need to break through the confidence deficite.
I wouldn't start trying to paint a picture that UNISON or FBU members are champing at the bit to take strike action over the potential pension conditions for future members. The best people at work thought that the PCS had pulled off a good deal that would protect us in local government.
Groucho said:How? You're not covered by it.
The LGA and unions meet very soon over exactly the same issue.It is expected that the employers will offer the same.
Guineveretoo
Mostly bewildered
But the LGPS already has a retirement age of 65, and has had for some years, so how can they offer the same?Chuck Wilson said:
Guineveretoo said:
You can retire with thirty years service.
Guineveretoo
Mostly bewildered
I thought that was protection which was offered when they changed the terms of the LGPS?Chuck Wilson said:
john malcolm
New Member
SWP latest
Members of the PCS civil service workers’ union in the Left Unity group in London voted last week to reject the pensions deal agreed between the unions and the government.
Confused .......read carefully
Members of the PCS civil service workers’ union in the Left Unity group in London voted last week to reject the pensions deal agreed between the unions and the government.
Confused .......read carefully
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Ah, do be wary of phrases like this, they always sound like jargon.Groucho said:
Incidentally, when you come across a less "backward" TU leader than Mark Serwotka, let me know.
Donna Ferentes said:
Mark is far from backward, in fact I regard him as a comrade, but he fights shy of doing just what I advocated here..appealling over the heads of the LP supporting TU leaders. I understand why - it's a risky strategy. But he took things as far as he could through painstaking discussions with other union leaders. Ultimately, when they would go no further he felt that was the end of the road. In my opinion a mistake.
And to add, it was clear from the content of the statement you quoted that was talking about the likes of Prentis.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
well, even the Weekly Worker says 'disciplined' - and the report of the Sheffield meeting is interesting, and somewhat disturbing. If it's true, there should probably be a few more disciplinaries!
Similar threads
