What's all the fuss about.

[Tony Blair]

I think we've already achieved a lot on education. It's totally clear from the exam result statistics, that standards have been massively improved since my government began.

But the battle is not yet over.

 

[Fez909]

How about trying to change the way you do things so people don't need ID cards because they're not inclined to steal benefits.

How about trying to change the way you do things so people don't blow themselves and others up on public transport.

How about trying to change the way you do things so that you could change the voting system to something fairer, and yet got more than a pissy 30-odd percent of the vote.

How about trying to change the way you do things such as getting rid of the possibility of schools run by Microsoft or religious nutters?

 

[Fong]

Do you have any evidence for these accusations?

Which ones?

The acts of "rendition" done by the CIA? They are not in dispute.

Or do you mean about previous government advisors going to work for Consultancy companies on huge wages explaining Schemes that they created when advisors to your government?

How about the individual case of Alastair Huges, according to Private Eye, the man responsible within the Prime Minister's delivery unit for 'patient choice' who is now working for Ernst and Young, Ernst and Young explaining why they charge such high prices to these government departments had this to say..."I need to charge premium rates because my people need to be paid well, so I can get hte best people"

Those people being the ones that created the almighty mess that is your policy in the first place.

Also you dismissed ID cards by rattling on about the possible benefits again, that was not the question I asked you.

I asked you how you justify the expense in the face of the government raising the retirement age, I did not ask you to explain what YOU think the benefits are again, I know what YOU think the benefits will be, I am asking you how you can justify the cost to the tax payer while telling them they all need to work for another 5-10 years to keep coughing up tax to pay for the pension schemes while at the same time you spend billions on an ID scheme that has debatable benefits.

 

[treelover]

weird thread

 

[Tony Blair]

Which ones?

The acts of "rendition" done by the CIA? They are not in dispute.

Or do you mean about previous government advisors going to work for Consultancy companies on huge wages explaining Schemes that they created when advisors to your government?

How about the individual case of Alastair Huges, according to Private Eye, the man responsible within the Prime Minister's delivery unit for 'patient choice' who is now working for Ernst and Young, Ernst and Young explaining why they charge such high prices to these government departments had this to say..."I need to charge premium rates because my people need to be paid well, so I can get hte best people"

Those people being the ones that created the almighty mess that is your policy in the first place.

Also you dismissed ID cards by rattling on about the possible benefits again, that was not the question I asked you.

I asked you how you justify the expense in the face of the government raising the retirement age, I did not ask you to explain what YOU think the benefits are again, I know what YOU think the benefits will be, I am asking you how you can justify the cost to the tax payer while telling them they all need to work for another 5-10 years to keep coughing up tax to pay for the pension schemes while at the same time you spend billions on an ID scheme that has debatable benefits.

I was referring to the thing about consultancy companies.

So your evidence is (a) anecdotal, and (b) from Private Eye, which is hardly a respectable or trustworthy source. It's a publication that makes its living by pandering to the prejudices of those who like to carp and criticise, and believe the worst of the government in every case.

On ID cards. Well it's going to be paid for by you, the people, so it won't take anything extra out of government coffers.

 

[Bear]

Hey Tony,

How about introducing PR so that the parliament makeup reflects how people have actually voted. The Electorial Commission suggested this.

 

[Bear]

On ID cards. Well it's going to be paid for by you, the people, so it won't take anything extra out of government coffers.

What if we don't want to pay for them?

 

[tbaldwin]

You're not the left are you, mr baldwin. In fact, given your criticisms, I'm half inclined to suggest you should vote for the BNP.

The house of lords is continually obstructive to government policy, and to be honest, I fear that if we had a fully elected second chamber, we would have a never ending gridlock, and the government would not be able to put any policies through at all, which would mean that we'd be stuck with the status quo for ever.

Benefit reforms. Why?

Oh dear, not a great suggestion Tony.... Did you ever do the 2nd world war at School....The Nazis they were not very nice.....
They believed in the concept of guest workers too i think....

Me i'm for a massive redistribution of wealth nationally and internationally which marks me out as a bit different from people like you and the BNP...

And as a Democrat how can you be for a non elected 2nd chamber?

Tony you need help... You have lost friends left right and centre...
You have given billions of £s to the parasitical middle classes to help the poor and they have wasted them on shit regeneration schemes etc and spent most of their time slagging you off while youve made them all rich.

You need a rest and you need help. I'm willing to do my bit give us a call...

 

[Tony Blair]

How about trying to change the way you do things so people don't need ID cards because they're not inclined to steal benefits.

How about trying to change the way you do things so people don't blow themselves and others up on public transport.

How about trying to change the way you do things so that you could change the voting system to something fairer, and yet got more than a pissy 30-odd percent of the vote.

How about trying to change the way you do things such as getting rid of the possibility of schools run by Microsoft or religious nutters?

How? How? How?

I don't have a mandate to do so. Everyone knows what I'm about. Or if they don't, I've tried to make it as clear as possible, while still staying within the bounds of possible political discourse.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Here's a question I've always wanted to ask Tony. In what way was getting involved with the US adventure in Iraq in the interests of the British people?

As far as I can see it's simply increased political instability in the middle east, the risk of terrorism worldwide and specifically in the UK as we've seen, for no evident benefit to the people of the UK. It's also got many UK soldiers killed, while rather evidently making a negative contribution to our defence.

So what's the benefits case?

 

[Tony Blair]

Oh dear, not a great suggestion Tony.... Did you ever do the 2nd world war at School....The Nazis they were not very nice.....
They believed in the concept of guest workers too i think....

Me i'm for a massive redistribution of wealth nationally and internationally which marks me out as a bit different from people like you and the BNP...

And as a Democrat how can you be for a non elected 2nd chamber?

Tony you need help... You have lost friends left right and centre...
You have given billions of £s to the parasitical middle classes to help the poor and they have wasted them on shit regeneration schemes etc and spent most of their time slagging you off while youve made them all rich.

You need a rest and you need help. I'm willing to do my bit give us a call...

Well, in contrast to the tories, who seem to only represent the interests of old money, and raised interest rates to cause a ruinous recession, in which a huge number of people defaulted on their mortgage and lost their homes, we have done our best to make it possible for everyone who can to get on the property ladder and stay on it, and we have managed the economy effectively to insure that the the ruin caused by a housing market crash never happens again. And a lot of people who've made it as a result are very grateful to us.

 

[aurora green]

I'd like to know what possible justification there is for introducing this 'Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill' ?

 

[Tony Blair]

Here's a question I've always wanted to ask Tony. In what way was getting involved with the US adventure in Iraq in the interests of the British people?

As far as I can see it's simply increased political instability in the middle east, the risk of terrorism worldwide and specifically in the UK as we've seen, for no evident benefit to the people of the UK. It's also got many UK soldiers killed, while rather evidently making a negative contribution to our defence.

So what's the benefits case?

Well, I think it's enhanced our international reputation among the people who matter.

And even if it's not entirely in the interests of the British people, more importantly than that, it's in the interests of Iraq, (the long-term interests) and the interests of the world.

What is the benefits case? What are you referring to.

 

[Tony Blair]

I'd like to know what possible justification there is for introducing this 'Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill' ?

Efficiency, modernisation.

Frankly, putting minor details of reforms through parliament every time takes so long that it's impossible to govern efficiently, and then we get blamed because change doesn't happen fast enough.

 

[Tony Blair]

What if we don't want to pay for them?

Don't then.

See where it gets you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Don't then.

See where it gets you.

As long as it isn't in bed with your wife.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I think the case for the Iraqis or the world receiving benefits that outweigh the costs e.g. in terms of promoting chaos and instability, is extremely weak.

You yourself seem very close to admitting that the case is non-existent for the people of the UK benefitting at all from putting our national honour, our soldiers' lives, our own security every time we step onto public transport and a great deal of our tax money, at the disposal of your friends in Washington.

 

[girasol]

I did a google image search for 'arse kissing' for firky's thread and look what came up:

why do you think that is?

 

[perplexis]

arguing, with brick wall. is. kind. of. fun

Wasn't I?

I always let it be known that I follow the Christian religion. I'm anglo-catholic. Which is part of a longstanding respectable tradition whose values are well known.

On the one hand you accuse me of being dishonest. On the other, you suggest that my religion should play no part in my politics. You may not have noticed, but the UK is officially a christian country, with a monarch who is officially God's representative. You may think this is a load of tripe. But it is officially true. And the fact that no-one has tried to change it, suggests that maybe there's a consensus that these values aren't outdated or outmoded.

What is this nebulous "consensus" of which you speak?
What possible opportunity does the electorate have to change this?
The tools of democracy are not in the hands of the electorate. We can't do anything, and you know it. That's what allows you to rule essentially by diktat. When are the public consulted? I can air my greivance with you at the ballot box. Once every 4 or 5 years. Oh boy, do I feel represented now. My views are clearly being taken into consideration. Honestly, for a man who's risen so high you have surprisingly poor reasoning skills. Probably this inability to see beyond the end of your nose is what saves you from having to feel guilty about your actions.

I happen not be Chirstian.
Therefore, by your own logic, you can never represent me.
Do you not think that the de facto disenfranchisement of vast numbers of people in this country on the basis of their religious beliefs and heritage is somewhat short-sighted?
Ultimately, as an Anglo-Christian, you must believe that all muslims, jews, hindus, sikhs, jains, buddhists and every other religion are damned to hell as they do not accept Jesus as their saviour. Do you think that this view can ever be compatible with working in the best interests of the people you govern.
Christianity as instantiated by your church is needlessly divisive and I maintain that it has no legitimate place in determining the actions of my government.
The (man-made, not divine) law of the land may well state that the Queen is g_d's representative on earth, but YOU are not. Have the grace to remember that. Would Jesus condone the invasion of Iraq?
No, of course he wouldn't.
Whoever you are (I don't for a minute imagine that the PM has time to ponce about arguing with people on bulletin boards) you believe in this shit, you're going to go to hell for all the people you've caused to be slain. This at least comforts me.

 

[skunkboy69]

Tony,Get yer lazy arse off the net and go do some work ffs.I pay enough in taxes ffs.I want a return.

 

[aurora green]

Efficiency, modernisation.

Frankly, putting minor details of reforms through parliament every time takes so long that it's impossible to govern efficiently, and then we get blamed because change doesn't happen fast enough.

The abolition of parliament is tad too high a price to pay.

 

[tbaldwin]

Well, in contrast to the tories, who seem to only represent the interests of old money, and raised interest rates to cause a ruinous recession, in which a huge number of people defaulted on their mortgage and lost their homes, we have done our best to make it possible for everyone who can to get on the property ladder and stay on it, and we have managed the economy effectively to insure that the the ruin caused by a housing market crash never happens again. And a lot of people who've made it as a result are very grateful to us.

er erm yeah, but how does any of that answer my points?

 

[bluestreak]

What's wrong with my education policy?

It's actually a minority of traditionalists who oppose it within the parliamentary party.

Is the education system so good that we should continue with outmoded principles, that clearly don't work?

Two words for you, bluestreak? Consensus and modernisation. If the Tories support it, and most of the parliamentary labour party, then that means that a very clear majority of the representatives of those who bothered to vote support it. What could be more democratic than that?

you know as well as i do that this isn't the case tony. the education system as it is does need a massive overhaul, but one that is led by teachers rather than politicians. in many areas the education system is fine, but the infrastructure is fucked. too many kids to teach, too much to teach in too short a time. in other areas education is in need of desperate change... too many exams, often pointless ones designed only to prove how well government is or isn't doing, schools marked and funded on the back of these exams. ridiculous.

consensus and moderation are fine, in moderation and if the consensus comes from those whose opinions are not loaded. you know as well as i do that this was a humiliation for you.

contact me by email and i will lay out some of the proposals that real teachers would like to see implemented and then we can talk.

also, i believe that politicians should index link their wages to the exact average wage of the country, thus standing to gain by making the people richer - and outlaw lobbying as it provides unfair advantage to some groups. what do you reckon to that? it makes the world fairer and more balanced and will save the taxpayer money.

 

[Bear]

Hey Tony. Type 'liar' into google and see what comes up first.

 

[tastebud]

I think we've already achieved a lot on education.

Including student debt and students that can't afford to continue with their education. And even a case of suicide due to ever increasing student debt.

Hmm.

 

[bluestreak]

that's another one tony, why are more people in debt these days? why are mortgage default affecting almost as many people now as in the dark days of tory recession? why are most people in more debt than ever before just to survive? this is a worrying trend here, massive amounts of people living off of credit that comes back, as credit will, to bite them on the arse. how do you propose to lift people out of credit poverty without upsetting your rich friends?

 

[tbaldwin]

Including student debt and students that can't afford to continue with their education. And even a case of suicide due to ever increasing student debt.

Hmm.

Student numbers have risen steadily cos they know its a good investment 4 their future..
And student debts is one of the most exaggerated problems in the UK..
And how many non students committed suicide in that time?

 

[Tony Blair]

Hey Tony,

How about introducing PR so that the parliament makeup reflects how people have actually voted. The Electorial Commission suggested this.

Well, although it is arguable that our electoral system is unfair, it does have the benefit that it creates governments with clear majorities, who are able to carry out their policies.

Another benefit of our electoral system is that it provides continuity. Ok, it's not that easy for a new party to get elected, but, if they did, they would benefit massively from our political system. It's a bit like poker. The winner takes all. And I think it's obvious that whoever cares most wins. The conservatives and Labour have been in power for the last sixty years, because they have done the most work to ensure that they get into power. There are massive differences of opinion right across the labour party, and there always have been, and the same is true of the Tories. But, in the interests of being in power, in both parties, people put their differences aside, and unite. And that's because they care about being in power.

My view is that if the left really cared about all the things they talk about, rather than just about being right, and following their principles, they'd put aside their differences, and unite round some common aim, in order to present an electoral alternative. The fact that they don't, and in fact more often not, refuse to engage with the political process at all, is what leaves the left without a leg to stand on.

To be honest, the whole issue of Iraq and the alliance with America, gave the left a massive electoral opportunity to exploit at the last election, and what did you produce? George Galloway.. Well, congratulations. It's hardly my fault that people continue to believe that the left don't have any real alternatives to our present system, and that they believe there's no point in voting for minority parties. I don't see what more I could have done to help you.

But if the left did unite and win an election, I think you'd be very glad that you found that the government has as much power as it does, as you'd need it if you were aiming to implement a program of radical change.

Whereas if we had PR, there'd be very little chance indeed of the "true" left winning an overall majority, and so no chance of any major change.

It's not my fault that the left just don't care enough about the issues you "care" so passionately about, to be bothered to offer a credible political alternative.

 

[Tony Blair]

The point is really that my political constituency cares about winning. Whereas your political constituency seems to mainly take the view, -you can't change the system- no point bothering to try.

 

[tbaldwin]

My view is that if the left really cared about all the things they talk about, rather than just about being right, and following their principles, they'd put aside their differences, and unite round some common aim, in order to present an electoral alternative. The fact that they don't, and in fact more often not, refuse to engage with the political process at all, is what leaves the left without a leg to stand on.

To be honest, the whole issue of Iraq and the alliance with America, gave the left a massive electoral opportunity to exploit at the last election, and what did you produce? George Galloway.. Well, congratulations.

It's not my fault that the left just don't care enough about the issues you "care" so passionately about, to be bothered to offer a credible political alternative.

He's just pissed on all your bonfires you useless Liberal Wankers....