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What's all the fuss about.

Ninjaboy said:
but your support gave hime credibility which he wouldn't have had otherwise, i don't reckon it was good for Britain to invade Iraq, or for Iraq for Britain to support it

i don't believe in God, i don't think anyone would have voted for you if you said God would be to blame for your fuck ups

can't believe i'm having an argument with 'Tony Blair' :D:D
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I have always stated that I am christian, and that this informs my politics, and my direction. America is the foremost christian nation in the world. How can you be surprised that I back the hegemony of America.

The world has been beset by the problems of nation-state against nation-state for as long as history has been recorded. It's far better in the long run, for the world to be united under one authority. And I can't think of a better candidate than the americans who are the standard-bearers of christianity, liberty, democracy, and meritocracy.

I want to ask you all a question. What alternative does the "real" left offer?

And why haven't they put it to the electorate?

Could it be that they know they couldn't possibly win? Or is it that you're just totally incompetent? Or is it just that you like to posture and sound good, but dont' really care enough to do the work of getting into power? Frankly, it might make politics a lot more interesting, if you could get enough support to get some representation in parliament. But as you dont' seem to have any real popular alternative, I can't see it happening, and I can't understand why you complain.
 
Tony Blair said:
I have always stated that I am christian, and that this informs my politics, and my direction. America is the foremost christian nation in the world. How can you be surprised that I back the hegemony of America.

The world has been beset by the problems of nation-state against nation-state for as long as history has been recorded. It's far better in the long run, for the world to be united under one authority. And I can't think of a better candidate than the americans who are the standard-bearers of christianity, liberty, democracy, and meritocracy.

I want to ask you all a question. What alternative does the "real" left offer?

And why haven't they put it to the electorate?

Could it be that they know they couldn't possibly win? Or is it that you're just totally incompetent? Or is it just that you like to posture and sound good, but dont' really care enough to do the work of getting into power? Frankly, it might make politics a lot more interesting, if you could get enough support to get some representation in parliament. But as you dont' seem to have any real popular alternative, I can't see it happening, and I can't understand why you complain.
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tony has been on the cheri and now he's trolling u75 :D
 
Fong said:
Why can't you speak out on your principles, instead remaining quite over human rights abuses carried out by and on behalf of your allies, instead you have your lackey's proclaim about how vocal you are in private.

Well you are the leader of our country, people look to you to get a response, a reaction that is supposed to be representative of our nation. How are they supposed to know we are against wrongful imprisonment, torture and human rights abuses, when you won't speak out about it?

On PFIs why is that the money you spend on consultants isn't included in any of your efficiency figures, isn't this a very poor tactic that if done by private business would be considered a fraud on shareholders?

You lay off in redundancies civil service staff to reach this ridiculous savings that you have claimed are possible, you then spend 3 times as much money on consultants and freelancers who earn up to a 1,000 pound a day to fulfil the commitment of the deptartment.

Your labour government has spent more on Consultants and put more money into the hands of KPMG, Accenture..etc etc then any previous government, your own ministers and advisors are getting rich off it. They present a scheme so incredibly complex and full of beaucracy that government departments need to hire Consultants to come in and explain it, but wait, it gets better, cause the very people now working for these private consultant companies are the advisors that created the scheme that no one could follow.

To put it in basic terms, your advisors are digging holes then selling their services as hole fillers back to the government at premium prices.

All the time you claim to be saving money, while anyone with half a brain can see that saving 300,000 on wage bills and spending 2bn on consultants hasn't saved you a penny.
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Do you have any evidence for these accusations?
 
Tony Blair said:
I want to ask you all a question. What alternative does the "real" left offer?

And why haven't they put it to the electorate?

Could it be that they know they couldn't possibly win? Or is it that you're just totally incompetent? Or is it just that you like to posture and sound good, but dont' really care enough to do the work of getting into power? Frankly, it might make politics a lot more interesting, if you could get enough support to get some representation in parliament. But as you dont' seem to have any real popular alternative, I can't see it happening, and I can't understand why you complain.
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Its a good question Tony... Sadly one the Left/Liberals have no answer too..
 
So, this is a very clever troll...

Tony Blair said:
I have always stated that I am christian, and that this informs my politics, and my direction. America is the foremost christian nation in the world. How can you be surprised that I back the hegemony of America.

The world has been beset by the problems of nation-state against nation-state for as long as history has been recorded. It's far better in the long run, for the world to be united under one authority. And I can't think of a better candidate than the americans who are the standard-bearers of christianity, liberty, democracy, and meritocracy.

I want to ask you all a question. What alternative does the "real" left offer?

And why haven't they put it to the electorate?

Could it be that they know they couldn't possibly win? Or is it that you're just totally incompetent? Or is it just that you like to posture and sound good, but dont' really care enough to do the work of getting into power? Frankly, it might make politics a lot more interesting, if you could get enough support to get some representation in parliament. But as you dont' seem to have any real popular alternative, I can't see it happening, and I can't understand why you complain.
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I can't believe I'm engaging in an argument with 'Tony Blair' either, but I can't let this pass.

Religion has no place in determining the affairs of a civilised nation.
How dare you bring outdated, outmoded values to bear on the lives of the people whom you govern.
Religion used as a justification for slaughter is repugnant.
Making decisions that affect millions of people on the basis of your religious convictions is spectacularly narrow-minded and simply wrong.
Of course, you can't behave in a manner entirely divorced from your deeply-held convictions, but you weren't elected to let irrational beliefs guide you.
 
Tony Blair said:
I've become aware that a lot of people here seem to want to criticise me a lot.

Frankly, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Most people are quite content with the status quo, and that includes both labour and Tory voters, by far the majority of those who vote in this country.
I have the support of my constituency, of my party, and of the electorate as a whole.

If the left have any meaningful alternative to the policies of my party, why haven't they put it together, publicised it, and obtained support for it at a general election.

People have accused me of being dishonest, but I have always made it clear that I occupy the centre ground in politics. I have made it totally clear what my politics are since I was elected, and my leadership has not been challenged.

What alternative do the left offer?

Put your grievances to me here, and I'll do my best to answer them.
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I mean..you know...look..okay? :D
 
perplexis said:
Pardon?
So it's legitimate to continue with policies that you seem to be opposed to, simply because they're already in place?
The point of electing a new governement is that that new government makes changes!
Your credibility as a government is not determined by your management of contracts with corporations, it is determined by how the electorate as a whole, not just the corporate elite, view you.
If you fail to turn-around the flawed policies of your predecesors you are as bad, if not worse than, they were.
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There was a database error, sorry about the delay.

I think it's always been clear that I'm in favour of the politics of consensus, stability and continuity.

It doesn't do the country any good to be rocked backwards and forwards between different ideologies.
After four consecutive Tory victories, I thought it was clear to all except the lunatic fringe that there the country had no interest in returning to the kind of Labour government we had in the late seventies for the simple reason that it destroyed our international economic credibility. We suffered devaluation, massive inflation, because the market would not take the economic policies that the old left tried to impose.
 
perplexis said:
I can't believe I'm engaging in an argument with 'Tony Blair' either, but I can't let this pass.

Religion has no place in determining the affairs of a civilised nation.
How dare you bring outdated, outmoded values to bear on the lives of the people whom you govern.
Religion used as a justification for slaughter is repugnant.
Making decisions that affect millions of people on the basis of your religious convictions is spectacularly narrow-minded and simply wrong.
Of course, you can't behave in a manner entirely divorced from your deeply-held convictions, but you weren't elected to let irrational beliefs guide you.
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Wasn't I?

I always let it be known that I follow the Christian religion. I'm anglo-catholic. Which is part of a longstanding respectable tradition whose values are well known.

On the one hand you accuse me of being dishonest. On the other, you suggest that my religion should play no part in my politics. You may not have noticed, but the UK is officially a christian country, with a monarch who is officially God's representative. You may think this is a load of tripe. But it is officially true. And the fact that no-one has tried to change it, suggests that maybe there's a consensus that these values aren't outdated or outmoded.
 
You can still legally shoot a Welshman with a crossbow after 9pm in Chester I believe. Doesn't mean that this law isn't a lot of outdated old cock.
 
kage said:
You can still legally shoot a Welshman with a crossbow after 9pm in Chester I believe. Doesn't mean that this law isn't a lot of outdated old cock.
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Well I wasn't aware of this, and I find it unlikely given the law on murder, but, if it were true, then once we pass this bill to allow us to rewrite outdated laws, without going through parliament, we can sort it out. Which has to be a good thing.. Modernisation.
 
*noting that apart from renationalisation of the railways, none of the "left" have so far suggested any major policy alternatives that they would approve of. *
 
How about scrapping our pointless nuclear 'deterrent' which is effectively controlled by the US anyway and save a few billion quid. This would also give us the moral highground of 'rogue' states such as Iran and NK, allowing us to promote non-proliferation and not looking like hypocritical scumbags.

Might be an idea eh?
 
kage said:
How about scrapping our pointless nuclear 'deterrent' which is effectively controlled by the US anyway and save a few billion quid. This would also give us the moral highground of 'rogue' states such as Iran and NK, allowing us to promote non-proliferation and not looking like hypocritical scumbags.

Might be an idea eh?
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Well it's more or less paid for already. Besides which the US wouldn't allow it. :D

Of course there is an argument about whether or not we should update it, and I think this should be the subject of a national debate.
 
And how about a no first-strike policy, even with 'conventional' weapons? Never do you need to get that pesky UN mandate again. Just wait till they hit you first, and then give 'em all you got.
 
Tony Blair said:
*noting that apart from renationalisation of the railways, none of the "left" have so far suggested any major policy alternatives that they would approve of. *
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Scrapping PFI and PPP. And bringing in some form of National Service...
Benefit reforms enabling people to keep more of their benefits and work...

House of Lords fully elected by PR.
 
Fez909 said:
And how about a no first-strike policy, even with 'conventional' weapons? Never do you need to get that pesky UN mandate again. Just wait till they hit you first, and then give 'em all you got.
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Well personally, I'm proud of the fact that Britain punches above its weight internationally, and takes a strong lead in international affairs. And I think the strength of the pound is to some extent a reflection of the admiration the world has for our foreign policies. And I do think that we should do our utmost to oppose murderous and corrupt regimes, simply as a matter of morality, something I thought the left prided itself on.
 
tbaldwin said:
Scrapping PFI and PPP. And bringing in some form of National Service...
Benefit reforms enabling people to keep more of their benefits and work...

House of Lords fully elected by PR.
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You're not the left are you, mr baldwin. In fact, given your criticisms, I'm half inclined to suggest you should vote for the BNP.

The house of lords is continually obstructive to government policy, and to be honest, I fear that if we had a fully elected second chamber, we would have a never ending gridlock, and the government would not be able to put any policies through at all, which would mean that we'd be stuck with the status quo for ever.

Benefit reforms. Why?
 
How about renationalisation of all infrastructures that are necessary to people's lives, things too important to be left to market values and things where the profit should not be measured by shareholders but by the users?

also, tony, how does it feel to know that your education policy is hated by everyone in your party not looking to suck up to you, and could only be got through by alliance with the tories? ad that teachers are almost completely opposed to your plans? and that already, specialist schools are mistrusted and seen as being the privatisation of education and selling out of our children to business and religious groups?
 
What's wrong with my education policy?

It's actually a minority of traditionalists who oppose it within the parliamentary party.

Is the education system so good that we should continue with outmoded principles, that clearly don't work?

Two words for you, bluestreak? Consensus and modernisation. If the Tories support it, and most of the parliamentary labour party, then that means that a very clear majority of the representatives of those who bothered to vote support it. What could be more democratic than that?
 
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