Whatever you think of hamas, are the continued missile attacks a good idea?

[tombowler]

I admit i have not read all this thread but this has been buggigng me for some days.

The peace plan put foreward calls that hammas disarm but not israel, why should one country and at that one that has been occupied by israel since 1967 not be allwed to be armed and repel the invaders? should they really accept being trodden on having their land stolen their water controlled furtile land stolen with the offer of desert in its place and think oh well thats ok then?

This situation is so blooody stupid and the latest resolution was pointless USA did not vote (or veto at least) how can one state be allwed to contiune doing theses things to another with no real action from the un to stop it?

Humans are dying every day due to this and its over simplifing the problem to say hamas is wrong in firing the missiles, look at all the wrong that the other side is doing. I am not saying two wrongs make a right this has just got to stop stop the killing move back to the pre1967 borders IE GIVE BACK WHAT WAS STOLEN and then have a real dialog to solve this major issue in the reigon

Oh and dont say i am against the jewish faith i dont care what thier relgion is on either side it is not the point beither religion says go out and kill people does it?

Oh and since when have ambulances, schools, un aid convoys and homes been viable targets? Hamas does not havve the tech to guide a pinpointed missile strike israile shure as hell does with its spend in uk and us arms.

it is physics for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction....

 

[audiotech]

What practical impact do these rockets have other than making the location they are launched a target? If they were attacking troops I would see this as a 'resistance' but the only targets the rockets create are the poor people who live where these idiots choose to launch them - most likely remotely so they are relativity safe.

The Israeli's are firing shells and dropping bombs on civilian areas where no rockets are being fired. The rockets the Palestinian resistence fire are launched in open fields, nowhere near where 'the poor people' live, btw everyone in Gaza is very, very poor everywhere there. The Palestinian resistance are not going to alienate it's mass base by putting people deliberately at risk.

I agree with Israeli socialist Moshé Machover who presumes that the firing of the rockets into Israel are 'a gesture to this mass base - to show resistance to Israel, even if it is largely token and ineffectual'.

 

[derf]

as it says .. personally i think they are a dangerous religio-fascist-nationalist organisation who do not care how many hundreds of palestinians die, as it fits in with their religious nut beliefs

.. but anyway even if you DO support hamas, or sympathise with them, do you still agree with continued attacks? .. cos even then surely it is NUTS to carry on ..

hey i even gave an option for kbj!

I don't support hamas but I understand why they are so far out on the edge.
If some fucker was doing to me what Israel is doing to them I may well start to feel the same way BUT....

They are far too extreme for my tastes and i do believe that the rocket attacks are making the situation worse than it need be as well as shooting themselves in the foot as far as the media and public opinion goes.

It has been my view for a long time now that the Arab side in this long running disaster we call Israel has right on their side and the only thing keeping world opinion against them has been bombings and rocket attacks.
These attacks are a god send for Israel (pun intended). A bomb every so often and a couple of shitty rockets that do very little harm gives the Israeli side a free ticket to do whatever the fuck they like and get away with it.

 

[scott_forester]

The Palestinian resistance are not going to alienate it's mass base by putting people deliberately at risk.

I assume they aren't a homogeneous bunch? My point is those rockets is the justification being used to attack 'hamas targets', continually firing them seems counter productive and does put their population at further risk. Especially since they have no idea who they'll kill by launching them, e.g. children, women, Arab Israelis etc

 

[quimcunx]

I admit i have not read all this thread but this has been buggigng me for some days.

The peace plan put foreward calls that hammas disarm but not israel, why should one country and at that one that has been occupied by israel since 1967 not be allwed to be armed and repel the invaders? should they really accept being trodden on having their land stolen their water controlled furtile land stolen with the offer of desert in its place and think oh well thats ok then?

This situation is so blooody stupid and the latest resolution was pointless USA did not vote (or veto at least) how can one state be allwed to contiune doing theses things to another with no real action from the un to stop it?

Humans are dying every day due to this and its over simplifing the problem to say hamas is wrong in firing the missiles, look at all the wrong that the other side is doing. I am not saying two wrongs make a right this has just got to stop stop the killing move back to the pre1967 borders IE GIVE BACK WHAT WAS STOLEN and then have a real dialog to solve this major issue in the reigon

Oh and dont say i am against the jewish faith i dont care what thier relgion is on either side it is not the point beither religion says go out and kill people does it?

Oh and since when have ambulances, schools, un aid convoys and homes been viable targets? Hamas does not havve the tech to guide a pinpointed missile strike israile shure as hell does with its spend in uk and us arms.

it is physics for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction....

Good post.

 

[audiotech]

I assume they aren't a homogeneous bunch? My point is those rockets is the justification being used to attack 'hamas targets', continually firing them seems counter productive and does put their population at further risk. Especially since they have no idea who they'll kill by launching them, e.g. children, women, Arab Israelis etc

The Palestine resistence are one in it's opposition to Israeli aggression. Now with 800 Palestinians dead and thousands maimed, mostly civilians.

The Israeli's are indeed 'justifying' this slaughter of Palestinians by pointing to, in effect 'ineffectual' rocket attacks on Israel.

I believe that if it wasn't 'Hamas rockets' it would be something else the Israeli's would seek out, or provoke to justify these criminal actions. They have afterall been provoking Hamas for some time now, with assassinations, bombings and a seige of Gaza. From what I've seen and read so far, the Israeli's appear to have been well prepared for this campaign of slaughter.

'Hamas rocket attacks', or not are not going to get in the way of the main Israeli objective, which is to wipe out totally the elected representatives of the Gazans and to continue it's brutal rule over the Palestinian people.

 

[panpete]

Is there a short "no" option.
Under no circs.

 

[free spirit]

personally I think they should stop wasting their time firing ineffective unguided missiles into mostly evacuated areas of Israel, and concentrate on actually attacking the IDF. HEzbollah showed that the IDF can be stopped, time for Hamas to demonstrate that it too is actually capable of doing some guerilla style fighting in to protect their people.

but then it's easy to criticise from an armchair far removed from the situation.

 

[Azrael]

Both terrorist murderers and attacks on civilians are reprehensible.

So, I emphatically do not support Hamas, and neither to I support lobbing missiles into areas alleged to contain them. High explosives and shrapnel don't discriminate.

 

[frogwoman]

personally I think they should stop wasting their time firing ineffective unguided missiles into mostly evacuated areas of Israel, and concentrate on actually attacking the IDF. HEzbollah showed that the IDF can be stopped, time for Hamas to demonstrate that it too is actually capable of doing some guerilla style fighting in to protect their people.

but then it's easy to criticise from an armchair far removed from the situation.

this.

 

[free spirit]

this.

which bit?

 

[frogwoman]

which bit?

all of it

 

[free spirit]

all of it

*carries on criticising from an armchair far removed from the situation*

 

[frogwoman]

that's what i like to see

armchair criticisim ftw

 

[free spirit]

yup, and always best to clarify these things as it's difficult to know what constitutes 'support' for a 'terrorist' organisation these days

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yet you seem to think that they are a Good Thing.

at least she thinks unlike some...

 

[frogwoman]

i don't think they're a good thing if they're targetting civilians and i dont support hamas

but i can't, in all honesty,blame the palestinians


besides, shit poll is shit

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It depends on what you assume there objectives are and whether you even believe they are firing the rockets. If you believe the single biggest concern is minimising harm to the people of the Gaza strip then they could try declairing a unilateral cease fire and appeal to the world. On the other hand if you think they are deliberately provoking the Israelis then continuing to attack Israel makes it very difficult for the current government to cease operations from a domestic political perspective. The longer the Israelis continue there offesive the more people in the west are turned against them and the more adjitated the muslim world becomes, most especialy Jordan and Egypt, hotbeds of the muslim brotherhood. If Israel launches a ground assault on Gazza that fails to remove Hamas then Hamases possition becomes very very strong and the Israelis lose face for the second time in a short period.

do you not think that the tide of publci support which swept hamas to power was possible as a result of an acceptance by people that a confrontation of this nature was an inevitable step?

consdiering that the years of fatah appeasement non bombing etc proved so very fruitful in resolving the issue.

The west and the world has only itself to blame for the current circumstances. Palestinians allowed the set up of the PA and disbanded the PLO as a result in keeping with the agreements to secure peace.

In return they have been treated as bluestreak thoughtfully said as scum
(lovely bit of dehumaniseation there chap i mean far be it from anyone of us to recognizse what steps a human might be pushed in to to take such action as getting hold of a rocket launcher and pulling the trigger eh it's easier to write those people off as less than human.)

the thing is that accross the spectrum people like bluey are making elementary mistakes about this conflict and it's a conflcit possibly more than any other which relies on the phrasing of and indeed the very language used in describing it.

but scum for short hand eh...

hamas was elected to take on the mantel of the vacant PLO shopfront they weren't taken on for releigious reasons.

They are taking on the mantle of the PLO and in this short period of time palestinians for the most part who know they are in one massive prision are preparred to put up with the actions knowing the alternative is continued destitiution at the hands of isreal.

whilst this will be hard to understand they knew what they were getting in to when electing hamas and also precisely the reasons for it they knew there would be hardship and trouble ahead but did it anyway. because the alternative was to have a party which as fatah was riddle with corruption and who had capitulated on every turn only to find the bar bill still kept going up.

push any group of people to the point of less than subsitance living and they will eventually fight back.

But ofcourse we have to acknowledge that it is not really Hamas firing those rockets but random nutters and agent provateurs. Or something like that.

or maybe just those taking the law into heir own hands having seen the systemic destruction of everything around them for long enough to know that actually if they are going to murder me anyway i'll take a few of them with me.

This whole missle thing is an entirely red flag.

it's an attempt by both Israel and the rest of the world to claim sysmetrical warfare we bomb them they fire missles.

the reality isn't sysmetric warfare at all it's entirely asysmetric and until this is axcknowledged as being fundamental to the problem of a big rich state leaning on it's waeker neigbour then there's no likelyhood of it stopping.

it's the cause of the missle attacks which needs to be removed in order for them to stop and hamas isn't the cause it's a reaction to the symptom.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

i don't think they're a good thing if they're targetting civilians and i dont support hamas

but i can't, in all honesty,blame the palestinians


besides, shit poll is shit

i think you'd be hard pressed to find civilians in Israel who aren't forgien...

 

[free spirit]

I think I agree with Garf (the long post)

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I think I agree with Garf (the long post)

you can agree with the short post too the mahority of israelis are at best reservists for the main military machine those who aren't are very few and far between although thankfully the students of israel are largly rejecting the call up but this still isn't in significant enough numbers to cripple a nation where if it needed to 99% of the entire place could be called upon...

 

[Yossarian]

you can agree with the short post too the mahority of israelis are at best reservists for the main military machine those who aren't are very few and far between

You think children, people over 45, disabled people, Arabs and ultra-orthodox Jews are 'few and far between' in Israel?

 

[MikeMcc]

Irrespective of my views of Hamas the Israeli reaction is completely despicable. It cannot achieve the aims that they are stating, it didn't in Lebenon and it won't now. The tactics being used are illegal, the way they are using WP, interfering with medical services, denying humanitarian aid, and herding civilians into areas that are then targeted. They should be forced to stop immediately, that will never happen while they have the support of the US in the UN.

 

[In Bloom]

This blog article on libcom.org seems pertinant.

 

[likesfish]

I think if you want to start quoting the rules of armed conflict lobbing rockets in the genral direction of israel and not wearing uniform etc could make hamas have some akward questions to answer.
its dispropatiate and completely counterproductive much like the rockets

 

[Dillinger4]

This blog article on libcom.org seems pertinant.

Excellent article.

 

[Blagsta]

as it says .. personally i think they are a dangerous religio-fascist-nationalist organisation who do not care how many hundreds of palestinians die, as it fits in with their religious nut beliefs

.. but anyway even if you DO support hamas, or sympathise with them, do you still agree with continued attacks? .. cos even then surely it is NUTS to carry on ..

hey i even gave an option for kbj!

None of the above really. People in desperate circumstances do desperate things. Who knows what my view would be if I was living in the Gaza strip?

 

[chilango]

None of the above really. People in desperate circumstances do desperate things. Who knows what my view would be if I was living in the Gaza strip?

Quite.

I'm really not in position to tell the people in Gaza what they should or shouldn't be doing.

I have an opinion of course but no matter how stridently or persuasively I put it on the internet it ain't gonna change a damn thing.

 

[Blagsta]

It's very easy for me to sit here and condemn Hamas (and I do, I'm no fan of Islamism), but if I was there and had been subject to Israeli oppression for years? Who knows what I might think or do.

 

[Brainaddict]

It's very easy for me to sit here and condemn Hamas (and I do, I'm no fan of Islamism), but if I was there and had been subject to Israeli oppression for years? Who knows what I might think or do.

Exactly. Hamas is an organisation that arose on the back of horrible oppression from the state of Israel and I suspect they care little or not at all about how much 'sympathy' they get from lefties in the West. Personally I think the best path Palestinians could have taken in the face of Israeli attitudes would have been pacifism, but that's easy for me to say - in reality pacifist campaigns occur very rarely anywhere in the world, let alone in places under military occupation.

So I don't see the need (or the point) in expressing either disapproval of or support for Hamas - the Palestinians are in a horrible situation that you are not in, nor ever will be, and if they make political mistakes, they suffer for it, not you. Both sanctimoniousness and cheerleading seem a bit tasteless in that light.

If we would prefer to see a more moderate Palestinian leadership then that will likely only arise when the military occupation ends, so we should concern ourselves with our political leaders' support for the military occupation - by selling arms to Israel and turning a blind eye to the state's murderous campaigns and constant human rights abuses.