What to do with Abu Qatada?
- Thread starter JHE
- Start date
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Since when was reciprocity the basis for human rights? That sort of logic is the rendition flight to Guantanamo.
trashpony
Hag
I think not. I was just wondering - I'm not a big advocate of an eye for an eye. I'm just musing around the idea that if you lose your rights to human rights at any point ever. I reckon we should lock him up in solitary on the Isle of Man or something. I don't want him tortured.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Human rights are the rights one has for being a human - whilst you're a living human being you cannot loose them. It's fair enough to restrict someone's liberty when they endanger the liberty of others but they should still be treated humanely and in my opinion given the chance to reform and be to released when no longer a threat - but then maybe I'm just as softy a liberal as my tag would imply.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Er, wait, though, he's not been convicted of anything in this country. He was banged up in Belmarsh for a few years, bailed for a few months (but kept under a control order) and then banged up again pending extradition for offences in Jordan where he was convicted in his absence.
trashpony
Hag
Sorry, I thought he had. Why was he in Belmarsh then?
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Guilty until proven guilty following a session on the rack - the legal frame work of the war on terror in one sentence.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
He was detained without charge under anti-terrorism legislation, until it was ruled that actually, locking people up indefinitely without charging them wasn't legal.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
I don't want Mr Qatada tortured either. But he came to our country seeking refuge, and then proceeded to campaign for the killing of kuffars. A 1995 religious opinion he issued in this country justified the killing of converts from Islam, their wives and children in Algeria. In October 1999 a sermon in London called for the killing of Jews and praised attacks on Americans.
In 1999, he was convicted in Jordan in his absence of conspiracy to carry out bomb attacks on two hotels in Amman and providing finance and advice for another planned series of bombings. He was sentenced to life imprisonment.
Mr Justice Collins, former Siac chairman, which heard an appeal against his detention, said in 2004: "The appellant was heavily involved, indeed was at the centre in the United Kingdom of terrorist activities associated with al Qaida. He is a truly dangerous individual."
In a 105-page written ruling, Lord Phillips, sitting with Lords Hoffmann, Hope, Brown and Mance, said there were no reasonable grounds for believing that Qatada would be denied a fair trial in Jordan, which has banned the use in its courts of evidence extracted by torture.
We need rid of him, and since the Jordanians have promised faithfully not to torture him, I think he needs to be sent away to face his fate without delay.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Sadly that's not quite true - the House of Lords ruling was that locking up only foreigners was illegal because it amounted to discrimination. The Government were quick to correct this by introducing the control order scheme that allows both foreign nationals and British Citizens to be indefinitely locked up in their own homes without charge. How lucky we are as beneficiaries of this equal opportunities policy!
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
What is?
He has used this country as a base for his campaign of hatred, having entered on false pretences, he has been duly convicted according to law in his homeland, and the highest court in this land has upheld the view that he should be deported to face the music for his crimes. I hope the Jordanians keep their word but we aren't responsible for everything that happens to a foreigner in their own country. It should be a lesson to others not to abuse our hospitality.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Do you make a habit of taking the assurances of despotic regimes at face value?
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
I think that this is one of those cases where it is reasonable to do so. Mr Qatada should have thought of moments like this when he started issuing his fatwas.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
So to sum up, you don't care whether somebody is sent off to be tortured, as long as they're a wrong 'un.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
There doesn't appear to be any logical connection between those two sentences. The second reads somewhat like a post-facto excuse for the first.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Human rights rest on good behaviour apparently. Again, very New Labour.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
To be precise, I don't care very much, and I've got the Jordanian's promise that they won't torture him. I am sure that the British ambassador will make sure His Majesty keeps his word.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Well, that either means you're awful gullible or that you don't care. I mean, I'm sure the Jordanian government will take great care not to embarrass the UK government, but then the UK government (a) obviously doesn't give a monkey's and (b) has experience in denying that torturers are torturing anyway, so I don't imagine they'll find it too tricky.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
When beginning a paragraph "to be precise" is best not tie yourself up in several knots in the following sentences.
And do you really think the British Government has any credibility in its commitment to preventing torture given the tissue of scandals and coverups uncovered by the media and human rights groups in recent weeks?
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
The UK government has negotiated a commitment that he won't be tortured and the courts are satisfied that he will get a fair trial. He's being deported for serious crimes. That's his human rights sorted.
He has responsibilities as well as rights. He failed to fulfil his responsibilities to our country by misusing his refugee status and using our country as the base for his campaign against Algerian men, women and children and Americans and Jews whose death he canvassed. He's learning that even this country has an end to its patience.
Do you really think he gives a stuff about human rights? He's on a mission from God!
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
The second of these.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
It's not an incoherent position not to care about torture, certainly, and I don't think anyone could accuse you of inconsistency there.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Thank you, I think.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
If he's suspected of having committed criminal offences he should be publicly tried not sent to dictatorship where he faces the risk of torture. Simples - as that annoying Russian meerkat off the t.v would say.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
What offences? He is to be deported for crimes committed abroad. It would be a breach of his human rights to try him twice.
You feel sorry for him, don't you? The poor oppressed wee man whose only crime is his faith in God and death to the apostates. Do you feel he should be freed from his cell in Belmarsh, and given a big fat compensation cheque, and a nice house, and the freedom of the borough?
Spion
I hear ya
Hehe, this thread has gone Speakyou'rebranes
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