what society is more racist??

[durruti02]

I know i should'nt ask this Durruti02, but how are you planning to stop cheap migration, or the desire from people in less wealthy and/or economically developed countries into Britain/Europe/1st World countries without implementing racist measures. Are you gong to disband the commonwealth, cut economic ties with Central/Eastern European Countries. This would have a negative affect on our relations in the world etc. etc. etc.

What sort of socio-economic policies will you try to implement which gives ,"one where employment is local and sustainable and properlt paid."?
Some sort of Distributionist system espoused by elements of the Far Right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism
I know some anarchist theoriticians had a few reactionary ideas; Proudons' National Bank, Kropotkins Glorification of peasant life in Fields Factories & Workshops, but these guys were still very much Internationalists.

Politically what are you suggesting: Autarchy. Tribalism

What are your long & short term solutions to the issues you raise.
What would you do now to implement a stop to immigration of cheap/slave labour.

For one thing it has nothing to do with supporting Labour/Trade Union struggles. Or supporting migrants struggle for decent conditions & wages.

er none of the above nigel

i am simply arguing for basic workers control - in fact what all the left should be .. and that means not allowing bosses to employ cheap labour .. forcing bosses to employ locally and pay properly .. forcing LAs to house local people ..

nigel migration is about demand .. no demand i.e no jobs on offer = no migration .. no one migrates where there is no work .. i argue for sustainable local employment .. NOT state controls or borders etc .. stop the demand you stop cheap labour migration

p.s. did you see the thread on sweden? high TU involvement in labour policy/low migration AND the best wages for migrants in europe ..


mate we have the highest EVER unemployment and particularly youth unemployment .. where i live it is c.50% .. neo liberalism in its current phase is USING ( and abusing) immigrants .. and yet we stay silent or welcome this .. the neolibs are laughing all the way to the fucking bank

 

[durruti02]

It appears that the government's only answer to these problems is the meaningless slogan "British jobs for British workers".

It should be less about appropriating the language of the far-right and more about the need for action at the sharp end:

yep pure racist wind up .. it is a neo liberal govt who will continue to encourage bosses to use cheap labour

 

[nino_savatte]

What's neo liberal migration?

You won't get a straight answer out of him because he doesn't even know what the term "neo-liberal" means. it's become a sort of blanket insult that is directed at capitalism. This thread is another in a long line of immigration threads begun by durutti.

 

[nino_savatte]

ok fair play not ALL the dirty work .. but a significant % .. do you really dispute that migrants have been brought here to do dirty /cheap labour MC??????

there are NO neo liberals who do not support this type of migration for cheap labour .. there are Little Englanders and old school Tories who are against migration .. but NO neo liberals ..

What, in your mind, is a "neo-liberal", durutti? I'm sure it would differ from the accepted definition.

However it is clear that this thread is not about "racism" but, rather, it is about (predictably) your pet subject: immigration.

Transparent as hell. Predictable as fuck.

 

[sleaterkinney]

What a stupid thread, immigration is supported because it's better economically, not because the powers that be have anything against native black and white people. ffs.

 

[Nigel]

Shock Doctrine

You won't get a straight answer out of him because he doesn't even know what the term "neo-liberal" means. it's become a sort of blanket insult that is directed at capitalism. This thread is another in a long line of immigration threads begun by durutti.

Interesting perspective on some of the roots of Neo-Liberalism from Naomi Klein(e)?

http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine

 

[nino_savatte]

Interesting perspective on some of the roots of Neo-Liberalism from Naomi Klein(e)?

http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine

For me, there is only one true neo-liberal state: Chile. Iraq is being re-created in the mould of Chile, which was used as a model by the 'planners' in Washington. Neo-liberal economic policies may be in the ascendancy but we are a long way from being a proper neo-liberal country in the strictest sense of the term.

 

[butchersapron]

What are the characteristics of a proper neo-liberal country or neo-liberalism?

 

[nino_savatte]

What are the characteristics of a proper neo-liberal country or neo-liberalism?

You mean you don't know? I thought you would or is it the case that you're asking me that question in the hope of provoking a confrontation?

Furthermore, durutti (and treelover) uses the phrase willy-nilly, have you ever asked either of them what it means?

 

[butchersapron]

Oh for gods sake. What is the matter with you? All you need do is run off a brief list of characteristics in support of your point. You have a serious problem nino. I'm not responding to you again on this thread (unless of course you manage to give a sensible non-paranoid reply to my query).

 

[Lock&Light]

You mean you don't know? I thought you would or is it the case that you're asking me that question in the hope of provoking a confrontation?

Furthermore, durutti (and treelover) use the phrase willy-nilly, have you ever asked either of them what it means?

But what do YOU think it means, nino?

 

[nino_savatte]

Oh for gods sake. What is the matter with you? All you need do is run off a brief list of characteristics in support of your point. You have a serious problem nino. I'm not responding to you again on this thread (unless of course you manage to give a sensible non-paranoid reply to my query).

Someone like you should know what is meant by the term "neo-liberalism" and what the characteristics of that system are. Why you asked me rather than durutti is obvious: you presume that I don't know what I'm talking about. But that is one of your biggest flaws: you presume too much.

If all you can do is throw the word "paranoid" at me whenever I suggest to you that you're picking a fight, then you're more immature (and dishonest) than I first thought. You're the one with the problem, butchers; you pick fights and you engage in smear campaigns against those whom you have taken a dislike. Grow up ffs.

You're fucking transparent, pal.

 

[nino_savatte]

But what do YOU think it means, nino?

It's clear that you've come along for a scrap too. Fuck off and die (and take your new friend with you).

 

[nino_savatte]

Well butchers? Aren't you going to ask durutti what it means or have you two got something going on?

 

[audiotech]

ok fair play not ALL the dirty work .. but a significant % .. do you really dispute that migrants have been brought here to do dirty /cheap labour MC??????

there are NO neo liberals who do not support this type of migration for cheap labour .. there are Little Englanders and old school Tories who are against migration .. but NO neo liberals ..

Not one?

Contrary to popular belief, most immigrants are not waiting at tables, or working on building sites.

13 percent work in banking and finance.
12 percent in the hotel and restaurant trade.
7 percent in construction.
5 percent in agriculture and fishing.

They also earn an average £424 per week compared with £395 for UK born workers.

 

[Nigel]

er none of the above nigel

i am simply arguing for basic workers control - in fact what all the left should be .. and that means not allowing bosses to employ cheap labour .. forcing bosses to employ locally and pay properly .. forcing LAs to house local people ..

nigel migration is about demand .. no demand i.e no jobs on offer = no migration .. no one migrates where there is no work .. i argue for sustainable local employment .. NOT state controls or borders etc .. stop the demand you stop cheap labour migration

p.s. did you see the thread on sweden? high TU involvement in labour policy/low migration AND the best wages for migrants in europe ..


mate we have the highest EVER unemployment and particularly youth unemployment .. where i live it is c.50% .. neo liberalism in its current phase is USING ( and abusing) immigrants .. and yet we stay silent or welcome this .. the neolibs are laughing all the way to the fucking bank

For one thing it has nothing to do with supporting Labour/Trade Union struggles. Or supporting migrants struggle for decent conditions & wages.

Never a truer word said in jest!!!!!

So you have no solution at all.
Unless you're saying that Britain should follow the Centre Left Social Democratic model of Sweden. Which I think even you would agree would be impossible. For one thing on the grounds of the differences between the two countries. Britain has always been a country based upon immigration which has enriched it in all ways possible. It is something as a people, especially from a working class & labour movement perspective that we should be proud of.

 

[durruti02]

What a stupid thread, immigration is supported because it's better economically, not because the powers that be have anything against native black and white people. ffs.

actually i agree with this .. i do not think that generally neo liberalists see race/colour .. all they care about is money

sleater .. my point though in this thread is that the consequence of this has meant a whole scale importation of africans and poles etc to do work we do not want to do as it is dirty and the pay is shite .. so there IS a racial angle .. and as we know the left like a racial angle .. apart from it seems as regards this

 

[durruti02]

For me, there is only one true neo-liberal state: Chile. Iraq is being re-created in the mould of Chile, which was used as a model by the 'planners' in Washington. Neo-liberal economic policies may be in the ascendancy but we are a long way from being a proper neo-liberal country in the strictest sense of the term.

i'll do a thread nino .. we can all define on there

 

[durruti02]

For one thing it has nothing to do with supporting Labour/Trade Union struggles. Or supporting migrants struggle for decent conditions & wages.

Never a truer word said in jest!!!!!

So you have no solution at all.
Unless you're saying that Britain should follow the Centre Left Social Democratic model of Sweden. Which I think even you would agree would be impossible. For one thing on the grounds of the differences between the two countries. Britain has always been a country based upon immigration which has enriched it in all ways possible. It is something as a people, especially from a working class & labour movement perspective that we should be proud of.

so arguing for a living wage is not socialist? arguing for the unemployed to be employed is not whata socilaist should do?? arguing that employers should not employ illegally without rights is wrong??? arguing for proper contracts instead of agency bullshit is not socialist?? and as i have said before i would wager a bet that i have recruited more reastern europeans to trade unions than anyone else on urban75

it is not contradictory to support rights for migrants and argue for better righst for all in any way

its seems you fall into the camp that says socialism is arguing for an illusory 'unity and internationalism' instead of arguing and organising to win real gains in reality ..

you confuse the benefts of cross culturalism with the use of migration as paprt of the neo liberal project as part of attacking the working class .. i am all in favour of migration .. but voluntary .. i think we shouldl have more work/study swaps so people can live and experinace different countries .. at the moment this privalage is for the young rich with their parasitical gap years in the far east and the forced privalage of economic migration with the tragic effects on families

in the 5ts and 6ts we had full employment .. virtually no one objected from a non racialist pov to immigration .. we now have millions out of work ( do you diasgarre) .. immigration is for a far worse objective .. specificlly as part of privatisation of cost and wage cutting and to continue to break the TUs

 

[nino_savatte]

i'll do a thread nino .. we can all define on there

It doesn't need your interpretation nor does it need redefining. What I tend to see is that the term is quite often used in a pejorative sense. I had your pal, brasicattack, describe me as "neo-liberal". It is obvious that the term "neo-liberal" gets used rather a lot to shut down forms of discourse that don't conform to your idea of a conversation - particularly when your pet subject is on the menu.

 

[Lock&Light]

From Wiki:

"Neoliberalism refers to a political movement that espouses economic liberalism as a means of promoting economic development and securing political liberty. The movement is sometimes described as an effort to revert to the economic policies of the 18th and 19th centuries classical liberalism.[1] Strictly in the context of English-language usage the term is an abbreviation of "neoclassical liberalism", since in other languages liberalism has more or less retained its classical meaning."

Make of that what you will.

 

[nino_savatte]

So what? You can cut and paste something from Wikipedia. That hardly makes you an intellectual.

 

[jonH]

 

[Lock&Light]

So what? You can cut and paste something from Wikipedia. That hardly makes you an intellectual.

Whereas your level of intelligence is clear for all to see.

 

[nino_savatte]

Whereas your level of intelligence is clear for all to see.

Another typically flaccid reply from the man with a clock (I'm sorry, cock) for a brain.

 

[Lock&Light]

Another typically flaccid reply from the man with a clock (I'm sorry, cock) for a brain.

Once again, nino proves my point.

 

[nino_savatte]

Once again, nino proves my point.

Only in your fevered mind. No one here actually agrees with you but then psychopaths are incapable of emotional literacy or intelligence. The world revolves around the psychopath...or so he/she/it thinks.

 

[durruti02]

dear nino and lock and ligth ..

so what are your opinions on the OP?

p.s. i have started a thread nino about what is neo liberalism

 

[kyser_soze]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if the unions and left 'activists' ha got their arses over to Eastern Europe at the same time the employment agencies did, trying to drum up some support from people who were about to leave there would be less of a stable door situation here.

But then I'm not too sure how many of those EEs would have felt being told all about the wonders of socialism having lived under Warsaw Pact govts for the previous 40 od years...

 

[dash_two]

Mind you ironic that 40+ years of socialism in Poland etc produced a lot of competent hard grafters!