what society is more racist??

[durruti02]

Plenty of socialists haven't argued against the 'obvious' on these boards

MC himself agrees with the arguement that migrants like many sections of workers are often used against other sections of workers - he agrees that that is part of the manner in which capitalism functions.

I suppose the few fools who still argue the 'not being used' case are holding onto outdated information that - for a period of time was true. Thats because the employers change tack at various times - governments bow to popular preasure (and fear of loosing votes) just as they bow to preasure from employers.

so, if we all agree now - does that mean the months long threads on immigration can be moved on from?

or can we at least move to solutions - how we break the divisions imposed by others between workers - which, in my book as a socialist - comes back to unionising those new layers as I stated clearly months ago and have repeated ever since? (as opposed to boss/government/politician inspired immigration controls - given i wouldn't trust them not to use their controls against us - the rest of us that is - as they already do).

I saw some american comedian* on tv on friday putting across his views on the 'immigration problem' - he pointed out that the constantly re-expressed 'fear' of others 'taking our jobs' - and all the other irrelevent 'fears' mugs fall for etc was a replacement for a very real 'fear'...

Not only could most of the people (ie ones he met going on and on about the 'big' issue of immigration..) not give one concrete example of how some immigrant has personally affected them and their direct life (ie 'took their job', 'slept with their women' etc etc) but that the real underlying 'fear' was a reality - the reality that most of us - by and large - remain powerless, irrelevant and generally achieve jack shite in our dull, tiny individual lives. Fuck all - no imprint - nothing left to posterity - well, ok, maybe some big personnal medical or personal trauma we can go on and on about for a few years - but thats about it. Sad isn't it?

Well it made me think anyway.

Hopefully it also answers the question - why do lefties not go on and on about this subject (and definatly not on a bulletin board between the same 5 people and a dog for months...)

*doug stanhope (couldn't find any youtube link - here's another one or two: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rouozDy_MNY&NR=1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CNjQQ2ichVI )

hi dennis .. as always i virtually agree with you .. yes plenty of socialists on here have argued sense .. but plenty have not .. and forgive me for getting frustrated when other 'socialists' regularly call me a strasserite/nazi/nationalist/racist (just in last fortnight) and no one but treelover complains/backs me

yes lets move on .. i called for a forum recently just for workplace issues and how to organise at work .. didn't get much takers but i still think it would be good for sharing knowledge and ideas more than debating ideas

.. but sorry i still think, as becky says, with it day by day becoming a bigger political issue, and with a significant section of the more liberal end of the left still not convinced of a class position, that the more general stuff will still need to be raised .. where i probably do still disagree with you is while i entirely agree on the organising side i still believe we need to have a major propaganda attack on teh bosses on this issue

the fear thing is right .. actually i think it is political impotence that is more important .. people believe they can not change society so the complain about somethin they thnk they can change .. i would dispute though that migration does not affect people directly .. most people, at least south of watford, would have personal experiance of how migration has economically negatively affected them or someone close they know .. the better off w/c and m/c types voting bnp though fits that bill of frustrated scapegoaters

 

[Lock&Light]

So what do you want to do ignore it?

Don't assume that everyone is looking for the same solution to co-incidental problems. (Is my humble opinion, btw).

 

[dennisr]

Moved on to what though? At the moment immigration looks like the issue that could settle the general election.
And yes it is going to be used by politicians and bosses.
So what do you want to do ignore it?

but i don't ignore it - that is why i look for solutions rather than repeat myself (as you have, yet again forced me to do with your tedious non-point...)

- i don't see urban75 p+p as the place where any election would be won

 

[audiotech]

of for fuck sake MC!! you really do make me laugh .. i have said for 2 years now that immigration is NOT a cause .. that it is just one of many nasty symptoms of capitalism/neo liberalism .. please if you want to criticise slag me at least read what i say

BUT the reason i bang on about it here is that it is the ONE issue the left almost entirely ignores .. we all agree about trade union laws about privatisation about PFI about casualisation about ID cards etc etc etc

BUT this is the biggest elephant in the corner going .. everyone one see see it ... but the left

and untill we DO lead with a class position migrants will continue to get scapegoated .. a liberal position will NOT save them or us from racism and scapegoating

You're the one who is the liberal, and may I say beyond help, if you think that you and your merry band of warriors are out to "save" anyone from racism and scapegoating.

 

[dennisr]

the fear thing is right .. actually i think it is political impotence that is more important .. people believe they can not change society so the complain about somethin they thnk they can change .. i would dispute though that migration does not affect people directly .. most people, at least south of watford, would have personal experiance of how migration has economically negatively affected them or someone close they know .. the better off w/c and m/c types voting bnp though fits that bill of frustrated scapegoaters

I don't think most people think they can change society most of the time. Most folk do not consider that there is any alternative most of the time. Everyday life weighs down on most folk including you and me most of the time. I'm not insulting folk in saying an obvious fact - but it just takes one moment to change.

There is nothing new in that - beyond the window of any alternative on offer being even smaller at the moment. (collapse of stalinism, neo-liberal agenda adoption, failure of some lefts taking shortcuts and sellouts by a lot who used to be left - as they were always going to do etc etc etc)

I tihnk you continue to overstate the influence of the BNP though - yes, popular disillusion spreads popular racist sentiment at the moment - but it is not reflected in votes for the BNP let alone openly fascist agendas (they hide their dearest wishes).

Put simply - there are no shortcuts - no easy way to turn the anti-immigrant mood on its head by pandering any more than impotently waving placards saying 'we love immigrants'. The simple fact is that the BNP vote results in just another bunch of do-nothing useless fuck wits doing nothing. Another load let you down - another bunch of politicians full of wind (these votes are not for 'stormtroopers'). That is not a stable fascist vote.

Class first, class second and class last - explain the issues on the doors in terms of class. Raise and support any examples of class solidarity and opposition. Put forward a programme based on class issues that cuts across the drivel - things that really matter - housing, education, health, jobs, conditions, debt, security - you know - the usual shite that effects us all.

Nothing has changed in that sense - racist sentiment soon drops away when class interest comes to the fore - in huddersfield (an area where the bnp could command a solid vote and had expected more - but instead an SP member was elected on an anti-cuts platform) where a genuine united front is being formed around the issue of cuts in services and conditions united with recent care worker dispute the 'popular' sentiment has been replaced by spme thing that makes more sense - and, in the wake of a recent community victory against nursery closures has raised sights - has even re-raised the idea of community as well as 'hey we can defeat these feckers'.

People have no choice but to fight - nowt new there either. What is so special about the 'popular fear' at the moment mate? Its just fear - understandable but not overwhelming

 

[durruti02]

I don't think most people think they can change society most of the time. Most folk do not consider that there is any alternative most of the time. Everyday life weighs down on most folk including you and me most of the time. I'm not insulting folk in saying an obvious fact - but it just takes one moment to change.

There is nothing new in that - beyond the window of any alternative on offer being even smaller at the moment. (collapse of stalinism, neo-liberal agenda adoption, failure of some lefts taking shortcuts and sellouts by a lot who used to be left - as they were always going to do etc etc etc)

I tihnk you continue to overstate the influence of the BNP though - yes, popular disillusion spreads popular racist sentiment at the moment - but it is not reflected in votes for the BNP let alone openly fascist agendas (they hide their dearest wishes).

Put simply - there are no shortcuts - no easy way to turn the anti-immigrant mood on its head by pandering any more than impotently waving placards saying 'we love immigrants'. The simple fact is that the BNP vote results in just another bunch of do-nothing useless fuck wits doing nothing. Another load let you down - another bunch of politicians full of wind (these votes are not for 'stormtroopers'). That is not a stable fascist vote.

Class first, class second and class last - explain the issues on the doors in terms of class. Raise and support any examples of class solidarity and opposition. Put forward a programme based on class issues that cuts across the drivel.

Nothing has changed in that sense - racist sentiment soon drops away when class interest comes to the fore - in huddersfield (an area where the bnp could command a solid vote and had expected more - but instead an SP member was elected on an anti-cuts platform) where a genuine united front is being formed around the issue of cuts in services and conditions united with recent care worker dispute the 'popular' sentiment has been replaced by spme thing that makes more sense - and, in the wake of a recent community victory against nursery closures has raised sights - has even re-raised the idea of community as well as 'hey we can defeat these feckers'.

People have no choice but to fight - nowt new there either. What is so special about the 'popular fear' at the moment mate? Its just fear - understandable but not overwhelming

class ... first second and third .. post

but i do think there is something differrent .. in a bad way .. the way so many people are talking as if there is no hope .. i think it is a combination of 30 years of neo liberalism ( i think the depth of that defeat has still not dawned on much of the left) of awareness that there is something wrong with the environment, and frustration with how controlled/costly life is nowadays

BUT BUT BUT i totally agree it does not take much at all to undercut the bnp ( yes agree there is virtually NO facist vote ) ... votes for SP/IWCA/HI show this ... but it is something that most on the left still seem not to grasp .. as you know i have always liked elements of militant/SP's classism/workerism ( there were other bits i did not like! ) which exhibits in e.g the down to earth day to day, the attempts at a genuine workers party in the CNWP ( though i think it is a wrong tactic) that good article on immigration, and other things like being active around domestic violence which none of the left have touched incredibly since the 7ts ,.. and it is that that enables you to win in places the rest of the left would / are failing dismally in

i think that looking for a new party or emphasising one's own outfit is no longer ( if it ever was) going to help .. when can not potter on with iwacs 3 councillors your 6 and a few independents dotted around .. it is time for something drastically differrent .. a progressive movement?

copying to chilangos thread

 

[tbaldwin]

INothing has changed in that sense - racist sentiment soon drops away when class interest comes to the fore - in huddersfield (an area where the bnp could command a solid vote and had expected more - but instead an SP member was elected on an anti-cuts platform) where a genuine united front is being formed around the issue of cuts in services and conditions united with recent care worker dispute the 'popular' sentiment has been replaced by spme thing that makes more sense - and, in the wake of a recent community victory against nursery closures has raised sights - has even re-raised the idea of community as well as 'hey we can defeat these feckers'.

People have no choice but to fight - nowt new there either. What is so special about the 'popular fear' at the moment mate? Its just fear - understandable but not overwhelming

Agree with dennis racism is often preety shallow.

But there is something special about now.

It is the scale of economic migration. And it is not racist at all to be anti immigration. The majority of Black and Asian people would agree far more with my views on immigration than they would with the people on here who argue against immigration controls. ( Including durruti)

 

[durruti02]

hey i know votes are not everything but its pretty clear cut so far .. maybe there will be a surge for the defenders of the status quo?? nino MC laptop icepick tarannu .. get voting boys!

 

[nino_savatte]

What's there to vote on? In typical binarist fashion, you've produced a poll with two options. Whoopee-do. Up/down; left/right; good/evil...yawn.

 

[tbaldwin]

What's there to vote on? In typical binarist fashion, you've produced a poll with two options. Whoopee-do. Up/down; left/right; good/evil...yawn.

Not voted yet then?
Spiv employers need all the help they can get from you nino tebbit.

 

[audiotech]

Out of 38,172 members of Urban75 just 22 of them have decided to vote in this daft poll.

That makes the no votes the majority.