What price would petrol need to be to stop you driving?

[djbombscare]

I'm constantly amazed how far away from home people are prepared to work - or vice versa.

I'm lucky that I've never worked more than a few miles from where I live.

I'd happily work closer to home.

But truth be told I can get to Taunton faster then I can get to Bradley Stoke.

 

[djbombscare]

Well you were taking about people will never give up their cars for bikes. Well I have for one.

Ok how many 40 mile+ trips do you have to do daily?
How many people are there in your nucleas family Kids partner etc ?
How do you do the weekly shop ?

 

[fredfelt]

Ok how many 40 mile+ trips do you have to do daily?
How many people are there in your nucleas family Kids partner etc ?
How do you do the weekly shop ?

I've never said that people should not drive. It's all about balance.

I've lived in Holland before and I needed a car for work so I had a car. It really was that simple. It was also simple to only use the car on rare occasions. Any local trip I still cycled. Anyway mileage rate for cycling was more than I got for driving.

Shopping for me and my partner was (and still is) done on bikes in the local shops. As they were local is was no effort to go as and when. The 'weekly' shop is more a term used by those who rely on out of town centres.

Oh, and as you ask I did a 40 mile trip yesterday. But I did it for pleasure on my bike, I guess I'm a bit weird like that.

My GF has a car but rarely uses it. We are putting on a BBQ for loads of people this weekend. We could use her car to go around the out of town Tecso, but that stresses us out so we are both putting our panniers on so we have the best choice of local shops and supermarket.

 

[djbombscare]

Oh, and as you ask I did a 40 mile trip yesterday. But I did it for pleasure on my bike, I guess I'm a bit weird like that.

Thats not wierd I'll happily cycle 40 mile for pleasure I used to do 10 miles at lunchtime to keep fit.

However the point Im trying to make is that cycling 40 miles to work and 40 miles back 5 days a week is not a a viable alternative to using a car.

hell I have a motorbike that I love riding and there's some morning that Im hard pushed to swing a leg over that. I took one look this morning and walked over to the car.

 

[roryer]

Again, you are looking at the issue from an urban/populated area point of view. While I wouldn't ban car use from cities, I agree with much of what you say and I would be happy to further restrict/discourage use.

However it's a rather different story when we talk about long distance (inter-city) travel. There are no pedestrians or cyclists to kill on motorways. Other than pollution, whichever ills you want to attribute to car travel you'll have to attribute to every other form of long distance travel known to mankind. So presumably so long as one has a low polluting vehicle, using their car for such journies is no worse than going by train, bus or plane is it?

A cyclist can travel about five kilometres on the energy of one egg.
0 (symbol for one egg)
A person walking would require three eggs to go the same distance.
000
A loaded bus requires the equivalent of about two dozen eggs for each person it carries five kilometres.
000000000000000000000000
A typical car requires the equivalent of seven dozen eggs to carry one person
five kilometres.
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000

 

[djbombscare]

How many buses and cars have you been in that run on eggs.

Or are you using the 1 Calorie [nutritional] = 4 186.8 joule conversion ?

and that an egg = 76 calories

 

[stavros]

Cycling is alright but it has limitations. How far you can get, and lets be honest you'll never get that weeks food shopping home for a family of 4.

Is weekly food shopping not a relatively recent trend though, with the unstoppable rise of big supermarkets built around motorised travel? As said up thread, I'm not allowed to drive and so tend to food shop every one or two days, thus able to carry everything by walking. I appreciate that this isn't an option immediately available to all, and that I cater for one, but is something that could be considered as a possibility.

 

[mentalchik]

Is weekly food shopping not a relatively recent trend though, with the unstoppable rise of big supermarkets built around motorised travel? As said up thread, I'm not allowed to drive and so tend to food shop every one or two days, thus able to carry everything by walking. I appreciate that this isn't an option immediately available to all, and that I cater for one, but is something that could be considered as a possibility.

How recent is recent ?

I'm quite old (45 ) and i remember my mum doing big shops.......

I don't have a car anymore and having to shop on foot for more than 1 person is a slog........there's a limit to how much i can carry and take on the bus......i have NO local small shops.......and tbh don't want to spend my precious days off work at the weekend trekking round carrying heavy bags !

It means that i spend quite a bit more than i need to !

 

[T & P]

A cyclist can travel about five kilometres on the energy of one egg.
0 (symbol for one egg)
A person walking would require three eggs to go the same distance.
000
A loaded bus requires the equivalent of about two dozen eggs for each person it carries five kilometres.
000000000000000000000000
A typical car requires the equivalent of seven dozen eggs to carry one person
five kilometres.
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000

I know the Telegraph is highly biased so I'm not taking it as the truth without independent verification, but I remember a study they published about 2-3 years ago in which it was claimed in some circumstances you could actually pollute more by train than by car as far as the diesel Intercity 125 units were concerned. You would need a partially full train, and the car used for the comparison would have to be economical and carry five people, but according to the report (which again, remains to be seen that it is correct) it can happen.

Not everything is black and white. I doubt the difference in passenger/mile emissions between a modern efficient vehicle and a bus that is only half full is significant. And as electrical cars get better with time, that difference will disappear altogether.

Incidentally, is the car in your comparison carrying just one person (not sure if you mean per person assuming a full car, or a car carrying just one person).

 

[co-op]

How recent is recent ?

I'm quite old (45 ) and i remember my mum doing big shops.......

I don't have a car anymore and having to shop on foot for more than 1 person is a slog........there's a limit to how much i can carry and take on the bus......i have NO local small shops.......and tbh don't want to spend my precious days off work at the weekend trekking round carrying heavy bags !

It means that i spend quite a bit more than i need to !

If you can do it by foot and bus, you can probably do it by bike and trailer?

Seriously, trailers are amazing for carrying stuff on bikes. Their big flaw is if you don't live on the ground floor - I'm on the 3rd floor and have to unhitch the trailer, chain the bike, take the trailer + contents upstairs, come back fot the bike. Not brilliant.

These people do a handy trailer and I believe Waitrose now offer them as a rentable option> http://www.bikehod.com/bike-hod/shopping.html

 

[Roadkill]

Is weekly food shopping not a relatively recent trend though, with the unstoppable rise of big supermarkets built around motorised travel? As said up thread, I'm not allowed to drive and so tend to food shop every one or two days, thus able to carry everything by walking. I appreciate that this isn't an option immediately available to all, and that I cater for one, but is something that could be considered as a possibility.

Supermarkets and car-dependence are certainly mutually reinforcing to a very considerable extent, but I don't think the rise of the major supermarkets (and the consequent decline of the independent shop) is solely a consequence of mass car ownership.

Chain stores were a creation of the second half of the nineteenth century, well before cars arrived on the scene in any significant numbers. They were a product of improving communications (making operation of chains over a much wider geographical area possible), an increasingly integrated national economy and therefore greater opportunities for large concerns to exploit economies of scale. This was especially the case in then-relatively new processed foods, the growth of which promoted a shift in the balance of power in the food chain from primary producer to processor and retailer. Modern-day supermarkets are largely products of the same factors, coupled with a very slack regulatory climate, the 'cheap food' policy, rising labour costs, an increasing proportion of households where all adults work, and so on.

The rise of road transport certainly has played a part in their growing dominance, partly in that their supply chain is built around delivery by lorry and partly in that they're built around shoppers arriving by car. However, quite a lot of the early supermarkets were town-centre based and a lot of shoppers arrived on foot or by public transport. The move out of town certainly was in part a response to increasing car ownership, but also a way of exploiting lower land costs.

In other words, supermarkets have certainly exploited the 'car culture' and they have come to depend upon it, but I'm not sure that it was a precondition for their development. It's certainly true, though, that were it to become more costly to drive to them now, more people would shop in town centres - or in those developments that are easily accessible by public transport.

 

[djbombscare]

Is weekly food shopping not a relatively recent trend though, with the unstoppable rise of big supermarkets built around motorised travel? As said up thread, I'm not allowed to drive and so tend to food shop every one or two days, thus able to carry everything by walking. I appreciate that this isn't an option immediately available to all, and that I cater for one, but is something that could be considered as a possibility.

I remember going weekley food shopping as a kid in the 70's so does that mean its a recent thing.

 

[Gromit]

No price rise would stop me driving because if my petrol goes up so does the petrol for buses n trains so they raise fares.

My car is both cheaper and quicker than public transport, yes really. Welsh rural public transport is stone cold stupid. It might make me consider car sharing hower.

 

[MikeMcc]

I remember going weekley food shopping as a kid in the 70's so does that mean its a recent thing.

depends on the folks. When the family was all together we'd a big monthly shop, then get a few perishables each week. Now I'm on my own I do a weekly shop. I don't have the storage space for any more stuff anyway.

 

[Looby]

depends on the folks. When the family was all together we'd a big monthly shop, then get a few perishables each week.

This is what we do, it helps us budget for the month and I spend less than I would if I shopped weekly or every couple of days.

For me it's not how much petrol rises but how much transport improves.

Where I live the transport looks good on paper- buses every 10 minutes, they've just introduced a night bus service too- but in reality it often means waiting around for 20-30 mins on the busiest routes. In the summer having 2 0r 3 buses go straight past because they are full of foreign students. I mean ffs, we make a fortune out of language students in this town but they won't spend the money to make sure we've got the facilities for them like extra buses.

The route to my doctors surgery is every 30 mins, very unreliable and finishes at 6 so a late appointment means a taxi home. To go to the supermarket I use is 2 buses as they cancelled the direct one a couple of years ago.

So I will keep using my car I'm afraid.

 

[roryer]

The number of carfree people is impressive, although urban75 is a poor snapshot of national trends as many of us are based in inner London boroughs like Lambeth where most people are carfree, it’s still encouraging.

I believe that driving in urban areas will soon be considered in a similar way to smoking in the workplace. Partly due to public pressure, as inner city dwellers suffer the consequences of suburban traffic, and partly as it just becomes unaffordable for society as a whole and many individuals.

Some people will laugh, and say it can never happen, but they are wrong. Changing public attitudes can be traced to the smoking debate. Back in 1993 loads of people smoked in my office, there were smoking compartments on trains, cinemas and on planes. If you had polled my colleagues then on the chances that within 15 years smoking would be illegal in pubs, I doubt 1% would have thought it likely.

So, if enough people lobby local government, write to the press, post to forums like this, and pester their friends and colleagues about the selfishness of driving private cars in urban areas, this too will be illegal within a decade.

The large number of people saying 'I will pay anything’ to drive, is equally interesting.

We will soon be past peak oil, and although there have been big advances in solar power sources, and coal is making a comeback, I think fuel prices will continue to climb, and those people that are complaining that it would be impossible to do without a car, need to desperately start to look at how to make life without a car both possible, and preferable, and its up to you to do this, as local government is generally there to help, not lead.

Should petrol prices pass £3 a litre, the cost of all travel will go up, not just for cars but buses and trains too, and the likelihood is that this will be combined with a recession, meaning incomes and employment will fall.

If your current way of life necessitates long distance private car travel, this will swallow up an ever-increasing percentage of your income.

National governments know the problem of ‘shooting the messenger’ and the world over are more concerned with being seen as the ‘motorists’ friend, than dealing with long-term problems. So it’s up to us, the people, to work as communities to provide the goods and services we need locally.

 

[T & P]

Buy electric car (a viable long distance model is all but round the corner) = end of the problem

 

[berniedicters]

So, if enough people lobby local government, write to the press, post to forums like this, and pester their friends and colleagues about the selfishness of driving private cars in urban areas, this too will be illegal within a decade.

People have pointed out that you tend to come across as, ah, a bit "single-minded" on this whole car issue, and you've denied it.

But with comments like the above, it's easy to see why accusations like that get made.

I think there's a world of difference between driving into work and smoking, and it speaks volumes about your attitude towards cars and driving that you don't appear to be able to see that.

If you are - as I think, from looking at your posting history, you appear to be - a raving single-issue anti car nut, then fine. You'll be in good company, and it still won't stop me from agreeing with quite a lot of the things you say. But you could at least be upfront about it.

Making things illegal should be a last resort. If we want people to use public transport more and private transport less, then the way to achieve that is to implement transport policy which makes it easier/cheaper/more convenient (sticks AND carrots) to use PT than to drive. Yes, sometimes a bit of legislative push is needed, but to treat people who drive as some sort of pariah who, if they could only be forced to behave differently, would see the light is just wrong.

Don't attack people for being selfish for driving in urban areas. Suggest to them that there are positive reasons, both personal to them and in the bigger social picture, for switching. Make PT easier and competitive to use. Encourage, don't fingerpoint.

And don't sit there crowing every time something remotely anti-car crops up, because that just makes you look like a loon and discredits your cause. A cause which. incidentally, I am all in favour of, sans the lunatic fringe, which only alienates people and polarises the issues to the point where the only option can be pointless and punitive restrictions and legislation.

 

[zenie]

Even in the city of London just 10% of journeys are by car - and for this everyone has to endure the busy polluted streets.

So the busy polluted streets aren't busy and polluted because of cars then, it's because of lorries, buses and the like?

 

[fredfelt]

I think there's a world of difference between driving into work and smoking, and it speaks volumes about your attitude towards cars and driving that you don't appear to be able to see that.

At the risk of sounding an obsessive. In terms of health the EU recon 30,000 peoples lives are cut short due to air pollution in this country, most of this pollution comes from transport.

The smoking ban was supposed to have been brought in to stop health problems from passive smoking. However 'passive driving' is a far worse risk.

You probably would not smoke next to you kids - but my local school is in an 'air quality management area'. This means that due to people driving children are being exposed to pollution deemed unsafe by the EU.

So in terms of health risk to others due to pollution driving is far worse than smoking.

I can understand why rorer makes this comparison.

But I do think people have a valid point when they say these 30,000 lives are an acceptable price to pay for the personal freedom the car gives to some.

 

[fredfelt]

So the busy polluted streets aren't busy and polluted because of cars then, it's because of lorries, buses and the like?

Maybe! The figure came from TFL - so they'll probably have figures for other other forms of transport used. I guess most journeys are on the tube.

 

[T & P]

Who's for buying roryer a Top Gear DVD box set for Christmas then?

 

[djbombscare]

I'll donate a quid

 

[roryer]

Hey Cheers, I'm no fan of Clarkson, but depite thinking its a waste of taxpayers money, airing a show aimed at reinforcing car culture, I have to admit that on pure entertainment grounds it's not a terrible programme.

Also having worked in product development myself, even though it was in the bicycle industry, I can appreciate the mechanical aspects of automobiles. I just don't like having them hurtling around city streets. Race tracks are fine.

And wasn't there also a show where a runner traversed London more quickly than a driver?

 

[T & P]

Yes, that's right. Out of a cyclist, public transport or car, the latter came last. Clarkson himself was saying they'd harmed their own cause.

That's the thing about Top Gear innit. It's great entertainment but it actually does the motoring lobby little good does it

 

[stavros]

With the combination of rising transport costs, climatic responsibility, and of course British riders' superlative sporting achievements this year, is there value in hoping for a cycling version of Top Gear?

 

[newharper]

As for the Supermarket shop, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the delivery services they all offer. They vary from chain to chain on cost; however, as you don't even need to go to the shop you save both time and fuel.

 

[Looby]

As for the Supermarket shop, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the delivery services they all offer. They vary from chain to chain on cost; however, as you don't even need to go to the shop you save both time and fuel.

I would never buy meat or veg online, I want to choose what mean I am buying (freshest looking veg, biggest peppers, longest use by dates etc). I find it a total pain in the arse when half the stuff you want is out of stock too.

 

[newharper]

I would never buy meat or veg online, I want to choose what mean I am buying (freshest looking veg, biggest peppers, longest use by dates etc). I find it a total pain in the arse when half the stuff you want is out of stock too.

I agree, but I wouldn't buy those from a supermarket in the first place.
However those are portable, except maybe for spuds.

 

[Looby]

I agree, but I wouldn't buy those from a supermarket in the first place.
However those are portable, except maybe for spuds.

I can't get it anywhere else without a car. It's 2 buses to the supermarket I use and my nearest greengrocers is a lot more expensive. Anyway this isn't an argument about supermarkets, it's about cars.