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What price would petrol need to be to stop you driving?

What price would petrol (or deisel +10%) need to be to get you to stop driving?


  • Total voters
    74
If petrol was free and burning it actually sucked pollutants out of the atmosphere and turned them into fresh air and bunny rabbits I still wouldn't drive a car. Cars isolate you from the rest of the world, they change the way you act and the way you think, and not just when you're in them. Having a car gives you a warped view of where you are in the world, and a warped impression of the people around as you shoot past them too fast to know what they're up to but slowly enough to jump to conclusions. Cars carve up our cities and make them treacherous and unpleasant places to travel through if you don't have a little armour-plated cocoon of your own. Cars are noisy and ugly, all modern cars look exactly the fucking same and boast in their advertising about how buying one affords you the opportunity to express your individuality. And cars kill people. With the possible (but still debatable) exception of an ambulance, a vehicle that has just killed someone was not going anywhere remotely important enough to justify that person's death. Every time you get behind the wheel of a car you create the possibility that somebody might die because of that decision, and not just an abstract little possibility either; you're shifting a ton or so of metal at high speed very very close to squishy and defenceless people. Yeah, it's not a motorist's fault that they need to drive for one reason or another but that doesn't change the fact that cars are inherently evil and we will never be free while they still roam the earth. IMHO :)

e2a: all that translates to the 'carfree' option in the poll btw.
 
Out of curiosity roryer, what would you like see happen if in 30 years time pretty much the same number of vehicles remain on the roads but they are all electrical?

The pollution issue would have been solved, but congestion and accidents would remain.
 
If petrol was free and burning it actually sucked pollutants out of the atmosphere and turned them into fresh air and bunny rabbits I still wouldn't drive a car. Cars isolate you from the rest of the world, they change the way you act and the way you think, and not just when you're in them. Having a car gives you a warped view of where you are in the world, and a warped impression of the people around as you shoot past them too fast to know what they're up to but slowly enough to jump to conclusions. Cars carve up our cities and make them treacherous and unpleasant places to travel through if you don't have a little armour-plated cocoon of your own. Cars are noisy and ugly, all modern cars look exactly the fucking same and boast in their advertising about how buying one affords you the opportunity to express your individuality. And cars kill people. With the possible (but still debatable) exception of an ambulance, a vehicle that has just killed someone was not going anywhere remotely important enough to justify that person's death. Every time you get behind the wheel of a car you create the possibility that somebody might die because of that decision, and not just an abstract little possibility either; you're shifting a ton or so of metal at high speed very very close to squishy and defenceless people. Yeah, it's not a motorist's fault that they need to drive for one reason or another but that doesn't change the fact that cars are inherently evil and we will never be free while they still roam the earth. IMHO :)

e2a: all that translates to the 'carfree' option in the poll btw.

Someone ought to play devil's advocate and put over a different - if not diametrically opposed - point of view, so here goes.

No means of transport, and very few human innovations of any sort, are without their downsides. The car is no exception to that. Cars are inefficient of space and they're often dangerous, to name but two problems with them. They're a crap way of getting about in built-up areas, basically. Like everything, though, they also have their advantages.

The private car represented, and still does represent, a huge increase in freedom of movement for people who don't live in the major cities. For anyone needing to travel at odd times, with a family or luggage, or tools of a trade, it is unparalleled. It's all very well for some to point out that most people managed without cars until the last century, but that rather ignores two facts. Firstly, rural employment was much greater then (often in low-paid agricultural occupations) and the need to travel for work consequently less, and secondly, people were considerably poorer and had fewer choices in terms of employment, leisure, supplies of food and other necessaries, and so on. The decline of local services and shops is a tragedy, but it's not one wholly of the car's making, and it does need to be balanced against the unquestionable advantage that greater mobility brings.

Cars aren't just a use-value. Very few means of transport are. Car enthusiasts are no different than enthusiasts for cycling, trains, old buses or whatever else. People appreciate the engineering that goes into cars, enjoy learning and exercising the skills needed to handle them well, and they compete in them in the same way as they did when horses were the main means of transport. In fact, the horse a century or two ago forms a rather interesting comparison with the car now in all sorts of ways.

Cars kill people and they cause congestion, but neither problem started with the car, and neither will end with it. London has been notorious for its congested streets since time immemorial, and browsing through Liza Picard's very enjoyable book Victorian London the other night, I noticed the rather startling figure of 200 people killed in the city in 1868 in road accidents (page 35, if anyone wants to go and check). That's in a much smaller city with a much smaller population than now. Congestion and accidents have both multiplied with the car, certainly, but they aren't unique to it, and despite the fact that the number of vehicles on the road has increased enormously, road deaths now are half what they were in the 1930s. Nor, FWIW, is the way cities have been carved up to accommodate it: tens of thousands of people were displaced in nineteenth-century London to make way for the railway lines. Not that that excuses some of the appalling schemes inflicted on many cities in the last fifty years.

The problem with cars isn't so much with the machines themselves as the assumption that once you've got one, there's no need to use any other means of transport. That is partly cultural, but partly also a product of the fact that, once you've forked out to buy, insure and maintain one, the marginal cost of each journey is pretty low. I'd like to see some means of shifting more of the cost of tax and insurance onto fuel, so as to give a more realistic cost per mile of motoring. That, more than anything else, would shake up the 'car culture,' which I'm certainly not denying is not a good thing.

I live in London, don't need a car, can't justify spending the money on one and don't agree with driving in cities anyway unless it's absolutely necessary, so I don't own one. When I move out of London I might get one, probably something old and quirky, such as a Morris Minor or a hefty old Volvo, which I'll get a certain satisfaction from tinkering with at a weekend and attending the odd classic car show and rally in. And it won't get used much, since walking, cycling and buses are a much better way around cities and I enjoy long train journeys far more than motorway driving, so the price of fuel won't really be much of a factor.
 
I voted the "I'd pay anything" option, because I live in an area where public transport is next-to-non-existent, and travelling to work by bike or on foot is out of the question, not least because I am also required to be on call to work throughout the county.

So I really don't have a lot of options.
 
If petrol was free and burning it actually sucked pollutants out of the atmosphere and turned them into fresh air and bunny rabbits I still wouldn't drive a car. Cars isolate you from the rest of the world, they change the way you act and the way you think, and not just when you're in them. Having a car gives you a warped view of where you are in the world, and a warped impression of the people around as you shoot past them too fast to know what they're up to but slowly enough to jump to conclusions. Cars carve up our cities and make them treacherous and unpleasant places to travel through if you don't have a little armour-plated cocoon of your own. Cars are noisy and ugly, all modern cars look exactly the fucking same and boast in their advertising about how buying one affords you the opportunity to express your individuality. And cars kill people. With the possible (but still debatable) exception of an ambulance, a vehicle that has just killed someone was not going anywhere remotely important enough to justify that person's death. Every time you get behind the wheel of a car you create the possibility that somebody might die because of that decision, and not just an abstract little possibility either; you're shifting a ton or so of metal at high speed very very close to squishy and defenceless people. Yeah, it's not a motorist's fault that they need to drive for one reason or another but that doesn't change the fact that cars are inherently evil and we will never be free while they still roam the earth. IMHO :).
Do you see things the same way when you look at non-city car use? Because a lot of those reasons don't apply. No issues about isolation or warped view of others as you shoot past them. Or if there are, the same can be said of every other form of transport for long distance travel (apart from walking or cycling, but then who walks or cycles between, say, London and Manchester?).

A similar story applies regarding killing people. By using trains, buses or planes you are also creating the possibility that someone might die as a result of your journey.

While there are many valid arguments against car use in populated areas, it seems to me that other than the pollution issue there aren't any significant negative consequences of using the car for long distance that don't exist with all the other modes of transport.

So we either agree that that car use outside cities is not evil or that negative actually, or that all long-distance forms of transportation excluding walking or cycling are undesirable and should be avoided if at all possible.
 
I dont have any option at all. I need to and have to get to work. So I have to pay whatever the price is.

These threads always come across to me as people in big cities with an extensive public transport network trying to change the way people outside of these get from A to B and telling them off for there fuel consumption.

Simple answer is for some of us here there are limited or no options, so we have to pay what it is.
 
I dont have any option at all. I need to and have to get to work. So I have to pay whatever the price is.

These threads always come across to me as people in big cities with an extensive public transport network trying to change the way people outside of these get from A to B and telling them off for there fuel consumption.

Simple answer is for some of us here there are limited or no options, so we have to pay what it is.
Perhaps we need a complementary "How good would local public transport have to be to stop you driving?" thread...
For my part, it'd need to be at least a half-hourly bus service, that cost no more than my fuel costs alone to get from A-B (so that's about 20p/mile). Ideally, it'd be bike-friendly (some of the longer-distance routes round here have bike racks on the back, so it's feasible). Plus, one of the problems with the buses here (such as they are), apart from service frequency and cost, is the fact that it takes an hour on the bus to do a 12 mile journey that can be done in 20 mins in the car - that's a huge disadvantage, especially if I were considering using public transport for my work.

There'd need to be something about connections, too - quite a lot of my work destinations are the other side of a local hub, so many journeys would involve more than one bus - it's no good to me if my bus gets in two minutes after the bus to my ultimate destination has left.

The trouble is that this is asking for the moon on a stick - the staff costs of running a 20 minute frequency rural bus service, would be astronomical, so my 20p/mile fare is out of the window for a start. Add to that the unlikelihood of fast direct routes (after all, much of the bus's business is going to be down those slow, winding diversions), and it's not looking good.

I don't really know what the answer is: perhaps we should depopulate the more rural bits and have everyone living in cities.
 
It's about £65 to fill my car at the moment (from empty), but I haven't done it in about 3 and a half weeks, and it's got plenty left in it

The more you raise fuel costs, the more the costs of buses will rise to go with it anyway. Like they're doing next week. Another 20p a day to get to work...
 
Perhaps we need a complementary "How good would local public transport have to be to stop you driving?" thread...
For my part, it'd need to be at least a half-hourly bus service, that cost no more than my fuel costs alone to get from A-B (so that's about 20p/mile). Ideally, it'd be bike-friendly (some of the longer-distance routes round here have bike racks on the back, so it's feasible). Plus, one of the problems with the buses here (such as they are), apart from service frequency and cost, is the fact that it takes an hour on the bus to do a 12 mile journey that can be done in 20 mins in the car - that's a huge disadvantage, especially if I were considering using public transport for my work.

There'd need to be something about connections, too - quite a lot of my work destinations are the other side of a local hub, so many journeys would involve more than one bus - it's no good to me if my bus gets in two minutes after the bus to my ultimate destination has left.

The trouble is that this is asking for the moon on a stick - the staff costs of running a 20 minute frequency rural bus service, would be astronomical, so my 20p/mile fare is out of the window for a start. Add to that the unlikelihood of fast direct routes (after all, much of the bus's business is going to be down those slow, winding diversions), and it's not looking good.

I don't really know what the answer is: perhaps we should depopulate the more rural bits and have everyone living in cities.


yeah Im kind of with you.

The thing is and I have to say its not the norm but a usual thing amongst people we know if you catch my drift.

I work 40 miles from my home, thats 80 miles a day. If I want the money I get which yes I admit has gone up cos I've just changed jobs.

However before I did a 50 mile commute daily which was a 100 miles a day. I even stayed away from home to do that as if I'd travelled from home I was looking at a 105 mile commute.

That was so that I could earn 18k a year rather than working in a shop or bar for £100 a week. Both those jobe are great to do, and I loved doing them. Howver that doens;t pay rent and I dont want to have to live with my parents.

To live where I did, Imeant in order to do my job, I had to either get the bus to exeter, then change to another one to get me to Torquqy. From there it would be a short hop on another one to Newton Abbot and onto to where I worked. Coming form where I live in Bristol, wa seven more of a logistical nightmare.

Now I know that you will never come up with a solution that is bespoke enough to work for everyone. But unitl you get anything thats remotely flexible its gonna be hard to get people off the roads
 
I dont have any option at all. I need to and have to get to work. So I have to pay whatever the price is.

These threads always come across to me as people in big cities with an extensive public transport network trying to change the way people outside of these get from A to B and telling them off for there fuel consumption.

Simple answer is for some of us here there are limited or no options, so we have to pay what it is.

Trouble is that the inevitable massive rises in the cost of oil will lead to massive rises in the price of fuel. This is what happens then demand increases and supply is limited.

So we could do what ever we can to artificially keep the price of fuel down, have one final binge and not think about the future - Or we do some long term planning.

If as a society we don't make a real effort to make transport accessible to everyone, not just those with a car, very soon the private car will be just for the rich who can afford really expensive fuel.

This is starting to happen already in the US. As there is a lot less tax on fuel people have been exposed to rises in fuel far more. People got used to cheap fuel, brought big cars and public transport is very limited. Regular folk are really in trouble as there is no alternative.

So accept that fuel will get loads more expensive. The state needs to do what it can to make public transport and non motorised options much more accessible.

Sure people will still need to drive at what ever cost. But if as a society we act now to reduce dependency on the car the cost shocks to society will not be as hard.
 
Out of curiosity roryer, what would you like see happen if in 30 years time pretty much the same number of vehicles remain on the roads but they are all electrical?

The pollution issue would have been solved, but congestion and accidents would remain.

I would still campaign for car freedom. I'm one hundred percent with Spooky Frank.

For me the biggest problems with a car dependent transport system are:
1. destruction of community.
Hyper mobility foced on us by the car, prevents people getting to know their neighbourhood and neighbours. Lack of PT, closure of high street shops, village schools, post offices etc. are all part of planning for the car.

All I ask is we reverse this system, and start to plan for people. No more new roads, when danger is cited as a reason for not cycling, build a cycle lane, take the space from the car lane, any congestion caused will be tempoary as people start to use the cycle lane.
If PT is too slow, build a bus lane, take away car lanes, and again people will choose to go by bus as driving becomes too slow. At the moment we see congestion as the big problem, when actually it is part of the solution.

2. Cars take up a disproportionate amount of public space. (look at the old pictures of Brixton, compare them with today). Get rid of the cars and we have loads of public space. I also find it a great shame that so much green field space is paved over for bypasses, motorways and the such, we lose green field space the size of the city of Nottingham in new roads cars are an incredibily inefficient form of mass transit it is quite simply collective madness.

3. Cars cause danger, injury and death, and cosquentially the loss of independence for children, and more importantly make my life less enjoyable, I don't like having tons of metal rushing around the streets where I live, walk and cycle on.
A school travel planner was complaining recently that when approaching parents to walk or cycle with their kids to school, many of them cited the traffic at the school gates as a reason they 'had' to drive. None seemed to quite make the connection that they were the traffic.

4. Cars are noisy.
If you live on a main road, you will relate to this. The noisiest parts of London also have the lowest car use. Not exactly fair.

5. The 700million cars on teh planet represent the biggest drain on our natural resources, and are the single biggest cause of climate change.

When you consider all of the other four points, it will go down in history, (if there is anyone left to read it), as pure idiocy.
 
The stupid thing is that the solutions are supposedly out there in the form of alernative fuelled vehicles.

However there seem to be reasons behind them not being available. Conspiracy theorist will have it that the links between Govt and Petrol companies stop them being available. I dunno what they are. But the one we currnetly have are shit.

Electric vehicles are not a solution. Until such time as they can charge themsleves up going down hills etc. If you have to charge it up all night by plugging it into the mains what you are doing is moving the consumption from one area to another.

Palm oil etc stops food getting produced and thyey water it down with crude oil etc so how the feck does that help anything

LPG ooooh look another fossil fuel.

Public transport will never be able to replace the flexibility of vehicle onwership. But now is the time to start with the alternative power. Hydrogen Fuel cells, water whatever.

Trouble is if everyone switched who would people point the finger at then ? the car driver has been the easy culprit up until now Taxataion money whatever they're raking it in at the moment and they wont want to loose thatrevenue stream.

I used thsi on a thread only the other day. Proof of thsi is when they said teh congetsion chrage wasn;t making any money so they want to include bicyles etc. For the congestion charge to work and do what its meant to do

As its eased congestion and no-one drives in there It should not make any money But for a stealthy tax thats shite
 
I would still campaign for car freedom. I'm one hundred percent with Spooky Frank.

For me the biggest problems with a car dependent transport system are:
1. destruction of community.
Hyper mobility foced on us by the car, prevents people getting to know their neighbourhood and neighbours. Lack of PT, closure of high street shops, village schools, post offices etc. are all part of planning for the car.

All I ask is we reverse this system, and start to plan for people. No more new roads, when danger is cited as a reason for not cycling, build a cycle lane, take the space from the car lane, any congestion caused will be tempoary as people start to use the cycle lane.
If PT is too slow, build a bus lane, take away car lanes, and again people will choose to go by bus as driving becomes too slow. At the moment we see congestion as the big problem, when actually it is part of the solution.

2. Cars take up a disproportionate amount of public space. (look at the old pictures of Brixton, compare them with today). Get rid of the cars and we have loads of public space. I also find it a great shame that so much green field space is paved over for bypasses, motorways and the such, we lose green field space the size of the city of Nottingham in new roads cars are an incredibily inefficient form of mass transit it is quite simply collective madness.

3. Cars cause danger, injury and death, and cosquentially the loss of independence for children, and more importantly make my life less enjoyable, I don't like having tons of metal rushing around the streets where I live, walk and cycle on.
A school travel planner was complaining recently that when approaching parents to walk or cycle with their kids to school, many of them cited the traffic at the school gates as a reason they 'had' to drive. None seemed to quite make the connection that they were the traffic.

4. Cars are noisy.
If you live on a main road, you will relate to this. The noisiest parts of London also have the lowest car use. Not exactly fair.

5. The 700million cars on teh planet represent the biggest drain on our natural resources, and are the single biggest cause of climate change.

When you consider all of the other four points, it will go down in history, (if there is anyone left to read it), as pure idiocy.


I know from some other threads that it appers your pretty much on an anti car crusade, But could you possible substantiate this factual evidence other than Wikipedia ?

Particularly the last one as I thought it had more to do with some other factors
 
I know from some other threads that your pretty much on an anti car crusade, But could you possible substantiate this factual evidence other than Wikipedia ?

Particularly the last one as I thought it had more to do with other factors

Absolutely not a anti-car crusade, I'm all for an efficient, safe, and inclusive transportation system, cars may or may not have a role to play within this.

Can you suggest how they can contribute?

As for stats and figures, yes I'm sure I can provide most of these, and probaby already have in past posts.
 
All I ask is we reverse this system, and start to plan for people. No more new roads, when danger is cited as a reason for not cycling, build a cycle lane, take the space from the car lane, any congestion caused will be tempoary as people start to use the cycle lane.

People are never going to give up cars for bikes. Ever.

The vast majority of people would rather sit in a traffic jam and arrive at their destination warm and dry, than ride a bike and arrive knackered and wet.
 
People are never going to give up cars for bikes. Ever.

The vast majority of people would rather sit in a traffic jam and arrive at their destination warm and dry, than ride a bike and arrive knackered and wet.

Not actually true.

First point here is the principle of 'traffic evaporation'.

"A study led by Phil Goodwin of UWE suggests that on average 20 per cent of the traffic that used a road seems to "evaporate" completely after the road has been closed - it does not reappear elsewhere in the road system. In some cases up to 60 per cent of the traffic vanishes.

But where did the traffic go? The report suggests that individuals often have flexibility in their transport choices (such as the mode of travel, when to travel, and even whether to travel at all). These results imply that there could be much greater scope for traffic restraint than has previously been assumed, since travellers apparentlyhave more flexibility in their travel behaviour than had previously been imagined." http://www.geocities.com/sustrannet/index.htm


Since other stats show that most car trips are for distances under 2 miles, it is easy to see how congestion can be used to encourage positive change.

Another example could be the City of Lund in Sweden, about the size of Swindon, in the 1970s it had very similar mode use stats.

Now, as it has been completely designed for bicycles and not cars, it has something like 70% modal share for bicycles.

There may be people who say they will never cycle and prefer to sit in traffic, in practice they are very very few in number.
 
Absolutely not a anti-car crusade, I'm all for an efficient, safe, and inclusive transportation system, cars may or may not have a role to play within this.

Can you suggest how they can contribute?

As for stats and figures, yes I'm sure I can provide most of these, and probaby already have in past posts.


From the Direct Gov website

The main contributors to climate change:

4 per cent of emissions come from industrial processes
7 per cent are from agriculture – for example methane emissions from livestock and manure, and nitrous oxide emissions from chemical fertilisers
21 per cent are from transport
65 per cent come from the consumption of fuel to generate energy (excluding transport)

And how can cars contribute in the future ?

Well as I said in one of my posts. That the flexibility that vehicle ownerships gives will never be matched by public transport links.

Cycling is alright but it has limitations. How far you can get, and lets be honest you'll never get that weeks food shopping home for a family of 4.

Nope personal vehicle in some form will always be a necessity. And it will be alternative fuels that keep it there.

It means that firstly our job skills are not limited to what is done on this side of the hill. That humus lentil bake someones tucking into is available in your part of the valley.

In fact lets go the whole fucking hog here. 99% of anything eaten in London aint grown in London. So no transport no food for London.
 
Cycling is alright but it has limitations. How far you can get, and lets be honest you'll never get that weeks food shopping home for a family of 4

And if it rains, you get wet. IMO this is the single biggest drawback, especially for a country with a climate like the UK.

Cycling has it's place, but it's not the magic cure all for our transport woes that certain people seem to think it is.
 
And if it rains, you get wet. IMO this is the single biggest drawback, especially for a country with a climate like the UK.

Cycling has it's place, but it's not the magic cure all for our transport woes that certain people seem to think it is.

I'm with you it has it place and that place is not a replacement to the car.

Some cyclist are like the jehovah's fucking witnesses of the transport world.

WE CAN SAVE YOU

Ok I've got 15 kids, a wife and a mistress and we all go out together. I work 200 miles away and I have to commute every day.

A BIKE WILL SAVE YOU

how will it get us all to where we want to be

IT JUST WILL

but how and why

IT WILL

your full of shit


NOOOO the BIG RALIEGH TOLD US SOOOOOOOD YOU NEED TO BE SAVED WITH A BICYCLE.



Meanwhile back at the Cyclist Witnesses Chapels. All the lights are on, the heatings turned up full to dry out clothes after getting pisswet through, tumble driers working overtime and a thousand bike lights slowly recharge to the tune of a blinking light.
 
I'm constantly amazed how far away from home people are prepared to work - or vice versa.

I'm lucky that I've never worked more than a few miles from where I live.
 
I would still campaign for car freedom. I'm one hundred percent with Spooky Frank.

For me the biggest problems with a car dependent transport system are:
1. destruction of community.
Hyper mobility foced on us by the car, prevents people getting to know their neighbourhood and neighbours. Lack of PT, closure of high street shops, village schools, post offices etc. are all part of planning for the car.

All I ask is we reverse this system, and start to plan for people. No more new roads, when danger is cited as a reason for not cycling, build a cycle lane, take the space from the car lane, any congestion caused will be tempoary as people start to use the cycle lane.
If PT is too slow, build a bus lane, take away car lanes, and again people will choose to go by bus as driving becomes too slow. At the moment we see congestion as the big problem, when actually it is part of the solution.

2. Cars take up a disproportionate amount of public space. (look at the old pictures of Brixton, compare them with today). Get rid of the cars and we have loads of public space. I also find it a great shame that so much green field space is paved over for bypasses, motorways and the such, we lose green field space the size of the city of Nottingham in new roads cars are an incredibily inefficient form of mass transit it is quite simply collective madness.

3. Cars cause danger, injury and death, and cosquentially the loss of independence for children, and more importantly make my life less enjoyable, I don't like having tons of metal rushing around the streets where I live, walk and cycle on.
A school travel planner was complaining recently that when approaching parents to walk or cycle with their kids to school, many of them cited the traffic at the school gates as a reason they 'had' to drive. None seemed to quite make the connection that they were the traffic.

4. Cars are noisy.
If you live on a main road, you will relate to this. The noisiest parts of London also have the lowest car use. Not exactly fair.

5. The 700million cars on teh planet represent the biggest drain on our natural resources, and are the single biggest cause of climate change.

When you consider all of the other four points, it will go down in history, (if there is anyone left to read it), as pure idiocy.
Again, you are looking at the issue from an urban/populated area point of view. While I wouldn't ban car use from cities, I agree with much of what you say and I would be happy to further restrict/discourage use.

However it's a rather different story when we talk about long distance (inter-city) travel. There are no pedestrians or cyclists to kill on motorways. Other than pollution, whichever ills you want to attribute to car travel you'll have to attribute to every other form of long distance travel known to mankind. So presumably so long as one has a low polluting vehicle, using their car for such journies is no worse than going by train, bus or plane is it?
 
I'm constantly amazed how far away from home people are prepared to work - or vice versa.

I'm lucky that I've never worked more than a few miles from where I live.
If you work in the centre of London and you want to live somewhere that isn't built up like buggery then you are looking at a 25-30 mile commute at the very least.

Not that you would drive to work in such circumstances. Instead you get packed into a series of inhumanly overcrowded trains. Sardines at least get some oil as lubrication.
 
I've been all round the world actually, show my a place where cars have been the dominant form of transport, and have since been replaced by the bicycle.

Well you were taking about people will never give up their cars for bikes. Well I have for one.

Then in European countries that have more of socialist leaning, rather than the strictly market economy we have, few people would think about using a car to get around a town or city. For example in Groningen 60% of journeys are made by bike. It has not always been this high, but a relatively small investment has made it possible. These 60% of journies takes up just 8% of the transport investment budget.

Even in the city of London just 10% of journeys are by car - and for this everyone has to endure the busy polluted streets.

The countries of Germany, Holland, Belgium, Norway are typically not dominated the private car. It just simply takes a small investment in infrastructure and people move from their cars.

I think you have to be crazy to want to sit in a traffic jam when you don't have to.
 
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