What % of the Worlds population had a higher education?

[Fisher_Gate]

The report also reveals that the share of 25-64 year olds who are qualified to higher education level in the UK grew from 16% to 27% between 1991 and 2002. Although this growth has been significant and the 2002 figure was above the OECD average of 23%, Britain still lags behind some of the main industrialised countries such as Canada (43%), US (38%), Japan (36%) and Australia (31%).


In other words FG. The number of H/E students has been rising all the time sections of the Liberal Left have been saying there is a danger of it becoming more elitist in the UK.
And all the time they were saying that more money should go to higher education students,more and more young people were seeing a degree as a very good investment for their futures.

There's the world of difference between increasing participation and widening participation in HE. The two don't necessarily go together. I, and no doubt the rest of the 'Liberal Left' you despise so much, am strongly in favour of the latter as a key priority of public policy; I am more circumspect about the former, if it is at the expense of other priorities, though in some cases it can be a good thing - for example if there is a desperate shortage of doctors in a country that is badly affecting the health of poor people, then whether medical students come from affluent or poor classes is of less importance than making sure there is an increase.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

The report also reveals that the share of 25-64 year olds who are qualified to higher education level in the UK grew from 16% to 27% between 1991 and 2002. Although this growth has been significant and the 2002 figure was above the OECD average of 23%, Britain still lags behind some of the main industrialised countries such as Canada (43%), US (38%), Japan (36%) and Australia (31%).


In other words FG. The number of H/E students has been rising all the time sections of the Liberal Left have been saying there is a danger of it becoming more elitist in the UK.
And all the time they were saying that more money should go to higher education students,more and more young people were seeing a degree as a very good investment for their futures.

While participation in HE among all social classes in England has been rising, it has been rising more quickly for the middle classes than the working classes, such that the gap between social classes is now wider than it was a generation ago.

Straight from the (Blairite) horse's mouth:

Around half of the population describe themselves as working in occupations which are classified as skilled (manual), partly skilled or unskilled. Yet, in 2000, just 18 per cent of young people from these backgrounds were benefiting from higher education. While this was an increase of 8 percentage points on the position in 1990, the increase in participation by people from families with professional and non-manual occupations was 11 percentage points (from 37 per cent to 48 per cent). In other words, the gap in participation between those in higher and lower social classes has grown. Indeed, if one turned the clock back to 1960 when there were just 200,000 full-time students, the gap between the two groups was actually less than it is now.

Widening Participation in HE, DfES, 2003

http://www.dfes.gov.uk/hegateway/uploads/ewparticipation.pdf

The Government recognise this - problem is they have the wrong solution.

 

[tbaldwin]

There's the world of difference between increasing participation and widening participation in HE. The two don't necessarily go together. I, and no doubt the rest of the 'Liberal Left' you despise so much, am strongly in favour of the latter as a key priority of public policy; I am more circumspect about the former, if it is at the expense of other priorities, though in some cases it can be a good thing - for example if there is a desperate shortage of doctors in a country that is badly affecting the health of poor people, then whether medical students come from affluent or poor classes is of less importance than making sure there is an increase.

FG i dont despise the Liberal Left, i just laugh at their hypocrisy...
And the Liberal Lefts position on H/E is typical of their muddled thinking and dishonesty.
It shows that maybe Marx (the wanker) was right when he said something like " the emancipation of the working class cant be left too a bunch of affluent middle class twats who just love whingeing"

 

[Fisher_Gate]

FG i dont despise the Liberal Left, i just laugh at their hypocrisy...
And the Liberal Lefts position on H/E is typical of their muddled thinking and dishonesty.
It shows that maybe Marx (the wanker) was right when he said something like " the emancipation of the working class cant be left too a bunch of affluent middle class twats who just love whingeing"

Come back and argue when you've got some constructive views of your own to put on this topic. In the meantime, drop the abusive nonsense.

If you want to read something useful about the importance of education for the majority of the world's population, try this:
http://marxists.anu.edu.au/subject/education/freire/pedagogy/index.htm

 

[tbaldwin]

Come back and argue when you've got some constructive views of your own to put on this topic. In the meantime, drop the abusive nonsense.

If you want to read something useful about the importance of education for the majority of the world's population, try this:
http://marxists.anu.edu.au/subject/education/freire/pedagogy/index.htm

constructive views as defined by who? Very amusing that so called Socialists are so keen to support a privelleged minority.

 

[ViolentPanda]

constructive views as defined by who? Very amusing that so called Socialists are so keen to support a privelleged minority.

Perhaps he means that instead of you posting snide abuse and vague witterings, you should actually insert detail, make clear what your ideas are and exactly where you stand, instead of doing your usual thing of standing on the sidelines taking the piss, but never actually adding any depth to your ideas?

Justa thought.

 

[tbaldwin]

Perhaps he means that instead of you posting snide abuse and vague witterings, you should actually insert detail, make clear what your ideas are and exactly where you stand, instead of doing your usual thing of standing on the sidelines taking the piss, but never actually adding any depth to your ideas?

Justa thought.

Where i stand? Not just standing on the sidelines taking the piss. I think the Liberal Left are muddled and dishonest.Well meaning maybe but self defeating.

There Internationalism is a farce.....On issues like Migration,Education and Crime they want policies that harm the people they say they want to stand up for...

What kind of Socialist is it thats so keen to stand up for the rights of a privelleged minority group.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Where i stand? Not just standing on the sidelines taking the piss. I think the Liberal Left are muddled and dishonest.Well meaning maybe but self defeating.

There Internationalism is a farce.....On issues like Migration,Education and Crime they want policies that harm the people they say they want to stand up for...

So basically you are unable to set out exactly where you stand, you've just got a handful of slogans that you re-arrange at need to stand in for actually having to think. Well done.

What kind of Socialist is it thats so keen to stand up for the rights of a privelleged minority group.

I don't know. Why don't you tell me what kind of socialist it is who would remove funding from HE so that the ONLY people who could actually afford it would be a privileged elite?

@cos that's where the road you propose ends, balders.

 

[tbaldwin]

So basically you are unable to set out exactly where you stand, you've just got a handful of slogans that you re-arrange at need to stand in for actually having to think. Well done.


I don't know. Why don't you tell me what kind of socialist it is who would remove funding from HE so that the ONLY people who could actually afford it would be a privileged elite?

@cos that's where the road you propose ends, balders.

1 I think ive set my views out time and again on crime,education and migration.....You really should know as you follow me around like a lost soul...

2 Yeah,great point you really showed a lot of thought with that one......

Only 1% have a H/E now....So claiming that anyone who thinks that some of those should not be subsidised seems just a bit dubious....

Why should ex etonians get a subsidised education?

 

[ViolentPanda]

1 I think ive set my views out time and again on crime,education and migration.....You really should know as you follow me around like a lost soul...

You've never set out your views.
You make a serious of vague pronouncements, and then when anyone draws attention to how vague they are you start in on the insults.
As for "following you around", don't flatter yourself.

2 Yeah,great point you really showed a lot of thought with that one......

Only 1% have a H/E now....So claiming that anyone who thinks that some of those should not be subsidised seems just a bit dubious....

Why should ex etonians get a subsidised education?

Lets go through this point by point.
So, does tbaldwin want to stop funding higher ed?
On the balance of his pronouncements, he does.

Would that mean that old Etonians get state subsidies?
No.

Would it mean that they would get parental subsidy?
Of course it would.

Would a removal of all state subsidy have a greater bad effect on the poor and the working class than on the middle and upper classes?
Of course it would.

So come on, what are your policy proposals to square the circle of disincentivising and removing subsidy from those who need it?

 

[tbaldwin]

I would stop pupils from private/public schools getting a subsidised H/E. I would spend that money on the existing education budget for all 5-16 education.
I would continue to subsidise H/E for others at the present rates.
I would increase aid for developing countries so that more kids could get a basic education.

My arguement is not for removing all state subsidies for H/E. Its against the Liberal Lefts bullshit about H/E.

 

[Fruitloop]

That's sounds within spitting distance of what happens at the moment, except that means-testing the parents is slightly fairer than just removing all subsidy from anyone who went to a private school. I went to a private school on a scholarship just for A-levels and could hardly afford to go to university as it was - and this was before tuition fees. If I had to make the decision again today I might well not have gone.

A more interesting question might be, should british universities be subsidised for poor but bright students from elsewhere? In germany no-one pays tuition fees, whereas here if you're a johnny foreigner you have to pay about ten grand a year, regardless of how skint your parents are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I would stop pupils from private/public schools getting a subsidised H/E. I would spend that money on the existing education budget for all 5-16 education.
I would continue to subsidise H/E for others at the present rates.
I would increase aid for developing countries so that more kids could get a basic education.

My arguement is not for removing all state subsidies for H/E. Its against the Liberal Lefts bullshit about H/E.

It's a pity you couldn't force yourself to be this coherent earlier rather than ranting on about bollock-all, isn't it?

Anyway, I have a feeling that if you can stir your raddled carcass to actually check the financial cut-off points for subsidy (that's subsidy rather than suitability for loans) you'll find that very few children of people with the wherewithal to put them through "posh" schools get any subsidy, except the one that depends on the individual universities: tuition fee caps.
There's very little direct subsidy to students left in the H.E. system except "hardship funds" and stuff like the "Disabled Student's Allowance". Most subsidy is direct to the college or university.

As for sending more aid to developing countries to assure a basic education, better to invest in direct local education infrastructure, that way the money doesn't "go walkies" somewhere between the countrys' treasury and the classroom, and end up in someone's bank account.

 

[tbaldwin]

VP sorry you need to check some FACTS that relate to the costs of what H/E costs....

 

[Fisher_Gate]

It's a pity you couldn't force yourself to be this coherent earlier rather than ranting on about bollock-all, isn't it?

Anyway, I have a feeling that if you can stir your raddled carcass to actually check the financial cut-off points for subsidy (that's subsidy rather than suitability for loans) you'll find that very few children of people with the wherewithal to put them through "posh" schools get any subsidy, except the one that depends on the individual universities: tuition fee caps.
There's very little direct subsidy to students left in the H.E. system except "hardship funds" and stuff like the "Disabled Student's Allowance". Most subsidy is direct to the college or university.

As for sending more aid to developing countries to assure a basic education, better to invest in direct local education infrastructure, that way the money doesn't "go walkies" somewhere between the countrys' treasury and the classroom, and end up in someone's bank account.

Because loans (in the UK) are in effect at zero interest that is a huge subsidy to the middle classes; and as you say there is a also a huge subsidy to the college or university through government funding (over half the costs of the course are picked up by the state, more if studying medicine or sciences).

I am not against a subsidy - universal support makes the system easier to administer and removes barriers to those in the lowest income groups. Those who benefit later in life by earning more should pay back through higher income tax though, something New Labour is too scared of saying.

 

[tbaldwin]

FG,VP. Do you think the govt should continue to give huge subsidies to ex independent school pupils in H/E?

 

[ViolentPanda]

FG,VP. Do you think the govt should continue to give huge subsidies to ex independent school pupils in H/E?

So now we get down to it; this isn't about H/E, this is about you being chippy.

As has already been said, subsidy should either be universal or based entirely on (in)ability to pay.

Make of that what you will, you'll do that anyway.

 

[tbaldwin]

So Sir Humphrey...You dont know where you stand......again.....

 

[ViolentPanda]

So Sir Humphrey...You dont know where you stand......again.....

I know exactly where I stand, I made it plain in the post you replied to.

I'll put it into simple words for you, though:

Either subsidise everybody, whether they're ex-public school or from comprehensives,
or
Subsidise purely on ability to pay, whether they're ex-public school or from comprehensives. Using pretty much the same financial formula as was used 25 years ago (parental income, savings, investments etc).

The former is ridiculous in financial terms, the latter is sensible and is a "socialist" solution. It's what I would prefer.

Probably not an "authoritarian socialist" solution though, because it doesn't set out to punish everyone or anyone you dislike or resent.

 

[tbaldwin]

Probably not an "authoritarian socialist" solution though, because it doesn't set out to punish everyone or anyone you dislike or resent.

So your worried about punishing people from independent schools....How typically Libertarian of you...

 

[Fisher_Gate]

FG,VP. Do you think the govt should continue to give huge subsidies to ex independent school pupils in H/E?

Do you think the government should continue to give huge subsidies to those with private health insurance who turn up badly injured at NHS hospitals because they have been involved in an accident? Or should they leave them to die?

 

[tbaldwin]

Do you think the government should continue to give huge subsidies to those with private health insurance who turn up badly injured at NHS hospitals because they have been involved in an accident? Or should they leave them to die?

Neither i think they should treat them and get the private insurers to pay up....What do you think?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Haven't I seen this thread somewhere before? Has it grown a point yet?

It's clearly not about prioritising resources so that this country provides finances for international education over HE for here - that would be "liberal" and "hating the working class" wouldn't it? So what is it then?

 

[ViolentPanda]

So your worried about punishing people from independent schools....How typically Libertarian of you...

No, I'm worried about penalising people with no money.

Any idea how many places at public schools are scholarships, balders?

Nah, didn't think so. All you see is a way to punish people who represent something you dislike, and fuck 'em if they're w/c scholars.

So please stick your facile and childish labels up your fat arse and grow the fuck up.

 

[tbaldwin]

Haven't I seen this thread somewhere before? Has it grown a point yet?

It's clearly not about prioritising resources so that this country provides finances for international education over HE for here - that would be "liberal" and "hating the working class" wouldn't it? So what is it then?

No it would be Socialist to provide resources for poorer countries. I dont know what clever point your trying to make but its wasted on me...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Haven't I seen this thread somewhere before? Has it grown a point yet?

It's clearly not about prioritising resources so that this country provides finances for international education over HE for here - that would be "liberal" and "hating the working class" wouldn't it? So what is it then?

Another of balders' thought-free resent-a-thons, that's what it is.

 

[tbaldwin]

No, I'm worried about penalising people with no money.

Any idea how many places at public schools are scholarships, balders?

Nah, didn't think so. All you see is a way to punish people who represent something you dislike, and fuck 'em if they're w/c scholars.

So please stick your facile and childish labels up your fat arse and grow the fuck up.

Any idea of what the average income is of those people whos kids get a scholarship...Nah.didnt think so blah blah....

 

[ViolentPanda]

No it would be Socialist to provide resources for poorer countries. I dont know what clever point your trying to make but its wasted on me...

Educational resources are provided to the "developing world".

Not for any socialist reason, mind you, but to provide a pool of pliable skilled labour when needed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Any idea of what the average income is of those people whos kids get a scholarship...Nah.didnt think so blah blah....

It varies from school to school, as you would know if you had the slightest clue, as does the type of scholarship on offer.

Still, I'm sure you must know about the average income, so why not tell us?

 

[tbaldwin]

It varies from school to school, as you would know if you had the slightest clue,

Crikey thats a real revelation...Bloody hell your clever...