What? No Irish election thread?

[yokerist]

excusing my afforementioned conspiracy theory accusation the following puts things into perspective and the freezy cold light of day/ "warm glow of the Celtic Tiger":

An Interesting Idea is how the economic prosperity in the ROI is actually far more significant historically than the Peas Process in the 6 Counties?

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/mick_fealty/2007/05/sinn_fein_and_the_failure_of_i.html

 

[yokerist]

dbl psssting

 

[lewislewis]

I think everyone looking at the elections is slightly surprised Gerry Adams didn't do well. Nobody expected Fine Gael to gain 20 seats either so there you go!

Sinn Fein needs to redefine itself. There is a crucial opportunity for SF to become the Left Republican , even anti-establishment, force in the ROI.

My friends think this isn't to do with Sinn Fein's peace process involvement but the fact their campaign was terrible, they aren't doing anything on the ground, and that Gerry Adams didn't seem to understand the Irish economy. What is Sinn Fein's place in the new Ireland?

 

[Gingerman]

The shinners will only always be a minor party in the Republic like the greens or the PDs

 

[N_igma]

The shinners will only always be a minor party in the Republic like the greens or the PDs

No, I think that they can become as big as say the Lib Dems are across the sea. There's lots of republican thinking people in the Republic, they just don't want to vote for them because of the legacy of the IRA and the stigma attached to voting for such a party.

 

[nino_savatte]

From yokerist's link

'They do a lot of talking but nobody believes a word they say round here. Local community groups see Sinn Féin in the same light as the other parties. They show up when they want something.'"

The same applies to all political parties, not just SF.

 

[nino_savatte]

Ahern and FF may have won the general election but the row about his finances won't go away.

Tribunal lawyers say there are flaws in the Taoiseach's explanation of one the lodgements - an IR#28,000 sum paid into the account of his ex-partner Celia Larkin in December 1994.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=180116928&p=y8xyy75x4

Ahern has called the tribunal "biased". The tribunal rejects this.

“We are not allowed to use physical torture on witnesses to find out if in fact they did disclose material,” he said.

The judge added he “absolutely and categorically” rejected a claim by the Taoiseach’s legal team that the tribunal is biased and bears some responsibility for leaks during the general election campaign.

The planning investigation chairman strongly denied Mr Ahern was being treated differently from any other witness.

“The tribunal has found it necessary to probe, and to only probe, those significant lodgments that appear in Mr Ahern’s accounts which are not accounted for by his income,” the judge said.

http://www.examiner.ie/irishexamine...m=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=33928-qqqx=1.asp

I reckon Ahern will manage to wriggle out of this.

 

[Columbine]

yep listening to that radio documentary its interesting and amazing how any concept of socialism or social revolution got washed out of sinn fein when they "entered the quest for power politics":

that aside (which really makes them not worth a bollix for any libertarian/anarcho sympathizers)

I still think they would better represent working class people than any of the other freaks of Irish politics.

Their collapse in the election shows however that their entrance into "power politics" has not really gone to plan

I wonder which one of the Senior Party Strategists is actually working for the British State?????

Who knows, they are all rich.

 

[Columbine]

I think everyone looking at the elections is slightly surprised Gerry Adams didn't do well. Nobody expected Fine Gael to gain 20 seats either so there you go!

Sinn Fein needs to redefine itself. There is a crucial opportunity for SF to become the Left Republican , even anti-establishment, force in the ROI.

My friends think this isn't to do with Sinn Fein's peace process involvement but the fact their campaign was terrible, they aren't doing anything on the ground, and that Gerry Adams didn't seem to understand the Irish economy. What is Sinn Fein's place in the new Ireland?

Sinn Fein actually gained 0.2 % of the vote but lost a seat - the Shinners are growing in the 26 counties - so it is!

 

[8den]

Sinn Fein actually gained 0.2 % of the vote but lost a seat - the Shinners are growing in the 26 counties - so it is!

Is this fella banned after 22 posts?

Just to respond, if the shinners can only capitalise 0.02% after the biggest break through in the peace process in nearly half a decade occured a few weeks before the election, well they are in serious trouble. The party is fragmented, it has dissillusioned it's base, and frankly through appalling policy ideas failed to capture any real new supports. Adam's display in the election debate was shocking, he did not seem to have a grasp of basic facts or figures. SF have not captured the imagination of the middle class, have dissillusioned the working class, and offended their hardcore base. They'll have trouble holding onto their single MEP (Mary Lou McDonald) who was glued to Adams all election.

I'm now incredibly interested to see how they perform in the next few years in the north. Unless they can actually bring, pragmatic and effective reforms, jobs, and economic benefits to the people of Northern Ireland, they will see trouble. They've brung peace can they bring the benefits of peace with Paisley. I'm wondering have we written off the UUP and SDLP too soon. Both groups seemed more pragmatic and centerist than Paisley's and Adam's party. And we've seen down south pragmatic and centerist is where the Irish seem to vote.

 

[nino_savatte]

FF to form coalition with Greens?

It's highly likely says Reuters.

DUBLIN (Reuters) - A coalition deal between Irish Prime Minister Bertie Ahern's centrist Fianna Fail and the Green Party is "very, very possible", a minister in Ahern's outgoing government said on Wednesday. http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL0651770820070606

UTV seems to have other ideas
http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=82766&pt=n

 

[8den]

Whats hilariously tragic is it won't matter a damn, The Irish Stockmarket took a kicking two days ago, with Irish banks loosing up to 4% of their value. Yesterday the central bank rose interest rates by quarter of a percent, with another rise expected in September, which means, any benefit seen by the removal of stamp duty for first time buyers will be wiped out. That was the hot topic of the election, and the reason why many people voted FF. Finaly the German finance minister, who like the rest of the EU, is looking at the state of Irish Infrastructure, and not so quietly wondering where the £6 billion (punts) they gave in the 90s to be spent on Irish Infrastructure, went exactly. He's also come out hard on Ireland's low corporation tax at the same time, and part of a increasingly loud EU voice insisting Ireland sort it out, in line with the rest of the EU. Apparently EU groups, are being sent to Ireland with delegates of new member states, and being shown around, and given examples, of how not to spend EU funds.

 

[rekil]

It would be a travesty if the PDs with their tiny lunatic fringe voter base and some crackpot independents like Jackie Healy Rae are allowed into government again.

 

[nino_savatte]

Whats hilariously tragic is it won't matter a damn, The Irish Stockmarket took a kicking two days ago, with Irish banks loosing up to 4% of their value. Yesterday the central bank rose interest rates by quarter of a percent, with another rise expected in September, which means, any benefit seen by the removal of stamp duty for first time buyers will be wiped out. That was the hot topic of the election, and the reason why many people voted FF. Finaly the German finance minister, who like the rest of the EU, is looking at the state of Irish Infrastructure, and not so quietly wondering where the £6 billion (punts) they gave in the 90s to be spent on Irish Infrastructure, went exactly. He's also come out hard on Ireland's low corporation tax at the same time, and part of a increasingly loud EU voice insisting Ireland sort it out, in line with the rest of the EU. Apparently EU groups, are being sent to Ireland with delegates of new member states, and being shown around, and given examples, of how not to spend EU funds.

I think, like everyone else, that the money went into tax cuts for the rich. I really find it hard to believe that many voters still swallow the mythologised guff that the FF put out about themselves being "The true Republican party".

 

[8den]

It would be a travesty if the PDs with their tiny lunatic fringe voter base and some crackpot independents like Jackie Healy Rae are allowed into government again.

If the Greens go into government there won't be any PDs in there to be sure. It might be a disasterous move by the Greens, they could be in government for the worst financial kicking the Irish people have endured since we joined the EU.

 

[nino_savatte]

The Greens are still hoping to hop into bed with Bertie and his 'warriors'.

DUBLIN, Ireland: Negotiators for the environmentalist Green Party said Tuesday they expect to forge a coalition government this week with Prime Minister Bertie Ahern's long-ruling Fianna Fail.

After more than a week of talks in Ahern's Government Buildings headquarters, negotiators from both parties billed Tuesday as the make-or-break deadline for a deal.

But Green chairman John Gormley said he expected the party's approximately 1,000 grass-roots members to vote on a joint Fianna Fail-Green government document at an emergency conference Wednesday.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/12/europe/EU-POL-Ireland-Government.
php

Interesting bit of comment here.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...-of-utter-contempt-for-the-public-696735.html

 

[8den]

Fuck me I just saw a flying pig! Nah But the Greens are going into Coalition with FF, and the fucking PDs

From the Irish Times

It emerged last night that the Greens have accepted that Iraq-bound United States military flights will continue to use Shannon airport and that all new roads planned by the outgoing Government will go ahead.

Ah so not alienating your core voters then lads.

Meanwhile, Fianna Fáil has offered acting PD leader Mary Harney a transfer to the Department of Foreign Affairs, in a bid to overcome Green objections to her remaining in the Department of Health and Children. However, Ms Harney refused the offer outright and she is now set to resume her command of health, including the plan to build private hospitals on public hospital grounds, when the new Dáil meets on Thursday.

Fianna Fáil has refused to offer any concessions to the Greens on another one of its key election platforms - the demand for an end to political parties and politicians accepting corporate donations.

Read it all here

 

[greenman]

The leadership have to get it past the members conference tonight though - with a two thirds majority required. There is a peace movement demo outside the meeting, quite rightly asking the Green members to hold to their principles. Let us hope they are successful.

I agree if they go into government on the terms as read, and with the flaming PDs also in coalition it is outrageous. Also outrageous is the public intervention of the general secretary of the European Greens calling for them to vote yes! He is calling for the Irish Green to go into govt with two parties that ally in one case on a European level with the "Europe of Nations" group and in the case of the PDs with the right wing of the liberals - closest to the German FDP/Orange Book types.

The first TD and founder member of the Irish Greens Roger Garland and also one of their ex-MEPs, Patricia McKenna have spoken out against the deal. Roger Garland predicted it could lead to a "wipe out" in future elections.

Green Left members in England and Wales will continue to fight the green right and their manipulations at home and in Europe. Maximum solidarity with the left members of the Irish Greens.

 

[8den]

The leadership have to get it past the members conference tonight though - with a two thirds majority required. There is a peace movement demo outside the meeting, quite rightly asking the Green members to hold to their principles. Let us hope they are successful.

I agree if they go into government on the terms as read, and with the flaming PDs also in coalition it is outrageous. Also outrageous is the public intervention of the general secretary of the European Greens calling for them to vote yes! He is calling for the Irish Green to go into govt with two parties that ally in one case on a European level with the "Europe of Nations" group and in the case of the PDs with the right wing of the liberals - closest to the German FDP/Orange Book types.

The first TD and founder member of the Irish Greens Roger Garland and also one of their ex-MEPs, Patricia McKenna have spoken out against the deal. Roger Garland predicted it could lead to a "wipe out" in future elections.

Green Left members in England and Wales will continue to fight the green right and their manipulations at home and in Europe. Maximum solidarity with the left members of the Irish Greens.

This is fucking 1992 all over, labour get its best turn out ever, primarily because people are so fucking fed up with FF. No one can form a government, so rather than stick to their guns, and demand another election, the fucking twats go into government with FF, and the Irish voters remember this fuckology next election and labour have never recovered.

Theres no way Sargent and the Lads could have done this worse. If they fail to win over the conference, the look out of touch with their base. If they win the conference, and go into government, they're going to be Bertie's sissy wee bitchs for the next five years and party to the economic fucking fiasco that Ireland is staggering towards.

Let Bertie go in with his minority government propped up by some independents and the irrelevant PDs, when the property market collapses, and it is going to fucking collapse, the middle classes with their "property investment porfolio" are going to fucking rip him a new asshole.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm not happy with the Greens going into coalition with FF. I think this will compromise what integrity they have left. It's all about getting power and nothing else.

I wonder if there was a briefcase full of cash involved in the deal?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Not only have the Greens managed to join the most right wing government Ireland has had since the 1920s, they have managed to get possibly the worst deal any junior coalition partner has ever managed to get in the history of the Irish state.

They have agreed to abandon their manifesto commitments over things like the US military use of Shannon airport, Rossport and offshore gas, the building of a motorway by the hill of Tara, corporate donations to politicians and the building of private hospitals on public land. In return they got a few vague promises along the lines of a commission to look into climate change and the like.

So they agree to business as usual, and in return all they get is a single Ministerial portfolio and a couple of junior government jobs. And because they have agreed to a government involving the Thatcherite lunatics of the Progressive Democrats and the dregs of the independents, get this... they don't even have the power to bring down the government if they leave. This means that their negotiating position is vastly weakened on every issue which arises and it means that they have no "nuclear option" at all.

They have adopted the position known over here as becoming Fianna Fail's mudguard. They have next to no say over policy, but they will take a disproportionate share of the blame for anything unpopular the government does. They will be the public face of faux-environmental right wing policies like part privatisation of the bus service or the re-introduction of the water tax. Simultaneously, they will get the blame for not opposing things they previously made a big deal of opposing like corporate donations. A related process got the Progressive Democrats nearly wiped out at this election, but it appears that the Greens have no capacity to learn from experience.

I'm not surprised that the Green Party here have sold out and joined a right wing government. I am surprised that they sold themselves at such a bargain rate.

The most interesting thing was the national membership meeting held to make the decision. Reports vary as to whether they managed to get 350 or 500 people together - both figures tell a tale about the state of Green Party organisation on the ground. The real tale was is the voting figures: Roger Garland (Green Party founder and first TD) and Patricia McKenna (first MEP and one of the most prominent party representatives) both voted No... but they could only muster 67 No votes in total from the entire Green membership!

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The leadership have to get it past the members conference tonight though - with a two thirds majority required. There is a peace movement demo outside the meeting, quite rightly asking the Green members to hold to their principles. Let us hope they are successful.

I agree if they go into government on the terms as read, and with the flaming PDs also in coalition it is outrageous. Also outrageous is the public intervention of the general secretary of the European Greens calling for them to vote yes! He is calling for the Irish Green to go into govt with two parties that ally in one case on a European level with the "Europe of Nations" group and in the case of the PDs with the right wing of the liberals - closest to the German FDP/Orange Book types.

The first TD and founder member of the Irish Greens Roger Garland and also one of their ex-MEPs, Patricia McKenna have spoken out against the deal. Roger Garland predicted it could lead to a "wipe out" in future elections.

Green Left members in England and Wales will continue to fight the green right and their manipulations at home and in Europe. Maximum solidarity with the left members of the Irish Greens.

I'm Green left myself. This talk of "maximum solidarity" is as empty as the poxy targets the Irish greens have sold themselves out for.

I am fuming. My Irish wife more so. I joined the Greens to campaign on issues like Rossport, Tara and Shannon (not that I live in Ireland).

What the hell is the point if we sell out for naff all at the first opportunity. My wife is considering leaving the party, and she's been very useful recently and did a lot for The Irish Greens in the early 90s. I am in a more "important" and therefore delicate position and I dont know what to do. Of the 3 issues it is Tara that means most to me. If the M3 is built with Green assent it strikes me there is no point in having a Green Party.

Greenman, why would you think our own GPEW wouldnt sell out? I dont want to wash our dirty linen in public but I strongly suspect that some Greens over here would do the same thing.

At the start of the Irish campaign we were polling around 14%. After a month of the usual not having enough money and coverage we got 4%.

Those 4% are a hardcore. They will have been voting on issues like those we have sold out on. It's disgusting.

Im a strong believer in the International Greens. As far as I am concerned we are a global party. I feel as let down by this as if Caroline Lucas herself was to vote for airport expansions.

Let's hope in the event that The Greens do all they can to stop the M3 destroying Tara. As has been pointed out, we dont even have the "nuclear option" anyway so we could vote against it and when it goes through it will be others to blame - including the Irish people who vote for parties that dont value their own culture.

But the seeming naivity and greed that has taken place is highly highly alarming. When people confront me about this (as they will) - I have a feeling that saying "I am in solidarity with the Irish green left" wont carry much water.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

sorry for the tone there greenman. Not aimed at you

 

[greenman]

Well, there obviously is a principled section of the Irish Greens as the vote was not unanimous and some well known figures such as ex-MEP Patricia MCKenna voted against. Their voice will become stronger if the TDs actually start to implement policies that go against their main campaign objectives. The likelihood is, (provided the activists stay and fight and do not go off to mess around with some typical IST/SWP style front-farce) that there will be a major bloodletting in the Irish party at some stage in the future. The German experience shows that leaving the Party simply consolidates the right in control. If we want to fight for principled Green and Left ideas and policies we must be prepared to stick our heads above the parapet as GL are doing in England and Wales and as the "Green Empowerment" grouping is now doing to oppose the centralist "leader campaign" in the coming referendum in England and Wales. This will be a key battle allowing the collectivist viewpoint to be set up against both the authoritarian tendencies and the "Maingreen" style media-pleasers. (You can just feel the media's and right's anticipation of and desire for the "New Green leader stamps his/her authority on unruly conference" type headlines.)

I do not rule out splitting from the GP if the situation becomes untenable, I have considered the alternatives in the past, prior to foundation of Green Left. However, it is again clear that it is far better to leave as a principled and organised grouping and either set up independently or join another grouping than it is to drift off as individuals, leaving the right/centralists in control.

We need to look at organising as left activists in the European Green Party across the continent - at the moment, as shown by the intervention of the EGP general secretary in the Irish situation the right are not being slow to use the structures and offices of the EGP to their advantage.

For me, the Green Party and parties were and never will be the be-all and end -all of politics or struggle, I leave that view to the rightists and "green government" fantasists. The question is whether the Green movement and parties can be aligned with a broad popular and international movement of the left and the working class, rather than as we now see ending up as the "mudguard" for right and centre-right coalitions. It is a broad and popular movement that will facilitate change and empowerment, not one particular party. It will require extra-parliamentary and direct action (ideally in tandem with an attack inside the systemic structures) to bring about the changes that are needed.

Do not despair, there is work to be done.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Their voice will become stronger if the TDs actually start to implement policies that go against their main campaign objectives.

The Green Party has just entered government having agreed to the use of Shannon by US troops, the continuance of corporate donations, the building of private hospitals on the land of public hospitals, continued stamping on the people of Rossport to the benefit of Shell and the building of a motorway past the hill of Tara. Surely that has to count as starting to implement policies which go against their main campaign objectives?

You probably haven't heard the latest twist. The building of the M3 at Tara is to be the responsibility of a Green held Ministry, but the outgoing Fianna Fail Minister signed the necessary permissions to continue building right over a newly discovered archaeological site on his last day in office. Not only have the Greens agreed to the road being built, they are actually going to be responsible for the process of building it! Bertie Ahern must be pissing himself with laughter.

The likelihood is, (provided the activists stay and fight and do not go off to mess around with some typical IST/SWP style front-farce) that there will be a major bloodletting in the Irish party at some stage in the future.

The problem is that there doesn't seem to be many of the necessary activists to start with. Remember, despite the involvement of Patricia McKenna and Roger Garland (and fair play to both of them for making a stand), that they could only muster 67 party members to vote against the deal. That isn't a very substantial number any way you look at it.

The entire party leadership, including all of its sitting TDs are in favour of going into coalition. Almost the entire membership concurred. Just as worryingly, although there is a certain anti-establishment element to the Green vote, the party which got the most transfers from Green votes nationally was Fine Gael. In other words at every level, from leadership, through membership to voter base, the right seems to be firmly in the ascendance.

I'm well aware that very different circumstances may prevail in different countries but in the concrete case of the Irish Greens, I can't see that a strategy of fighting for control of the Green Party is a viable approach for left wing environmentalists. There just aren't the forces there to do it, and a spell in government implementing right wing policies isn't likely to attract any fresh burst of left inclined members. 67 people isn't that much bigger than the larger of Ireland's two anarchist groups.