what, no 'fifteen years since thatcher resigned' thread?

[LLETSA]

Yep, i don't think anyone's seeking to paint this as victory in the final battle, but that fact that she represented so much that so many of us had been fighting against, and crucially lost, made it important in personal terms. I don't think anyone thinks that it was a turning point.

In reality she represented those things no more than a whole host of other figures.

I suppose I'm not that interested in the fate of personalities, especially whern nothing substantial changes.

Judging by the tone of some of the posts in this thread, I wouldn't say that nobody thinks it was a turning point.

 

[poster342002]

Do you still dine out on this nonsense? The fact is that, while the anti-poll tax campaign sealed Thatcher's fate, it was only because her own cabinet decided that a change of leader was needed that she had to resign. Had they decided to ride it out she would have remained PM, even if the poll tax had to be scrapped.

As it is her removal as leader didn't matter at all in the long run.

Sadly, you're probably right. I used to try to convince myself it was the anti-poll tax campaign that did it. Never quite believed it it - even though I wanted to believe it.

 

[LLETSA]

And as for strengthening her legacy? Did it buggerry, it made her look like a joke at the end. "I will go on and on." Oh no you won't!

You're confusing her legacy with her survival as PM.

 

[butchersapron]

In reality she represented those things no more than a whole host of other figures.

I suppose I'm not that interested in the fate of personalities, especially whern nothing substantial changes.

Judging by the tone of some of the posts in this thread, I wouldn't say that nobody thinks it was a turning point.

She represeneted those things in a particularly galling manner though. And there are differences of emphasis bewteen how programs will/can be implemented - she just represented the most aggressive and aware class war from above current, but it's in these small differences that people live - the overall package is the same, but the local application isn't always. It's a smaller battle but's one worth fighting, which i always thought was one of the principles that the IWCA was buillt around.

 

[LLETSA]

Sadly, you're probably right. I used to try to convince myself it was the anti-poll tax campaign that did it. Never quite believed it it - even though I wanted to believe it.

The scrapping of the poll tax was a working class victory. The resignation of Thatcher was merely the shuffling of chairs among a section of the ruling class.

 

[poster342002]

What a fantastic day it was. The 'phone at work wouldn't stop ringing. Everyone was smiling and glitter spontaneously errupted from the ceiling, the carpet sprouted little flowers and chirrupy birds flew in through the windows.

I think my memory may have adopted some license in offering this recollection, but such was gloriousness of the day. I offed down the pub.




The 'Gotcha' edition of Socialist Worker was very popular.

And what did you think when everyone promptly forgot the last umpteen years and began supporting the tories again because "nice Mr Major" was in charge?

 

[LLETSA]

She represeneted those things in a particularly galling manner though. And there are differences of emphasis bewteen how programs will/can be implemented - she just represented the most aggressive and aware class war from above current, but it's in these small differences that people live - the overall package is the same, but the local application isn't always. It's a smaller battle but's one worth fighting, which i always thought was one of the principles that the IWCA was buillt around.

As I've pointed out elsewhere, what I'm saying has got nothing to do with the IWCA, which just happens to be an organisation I'm in agreement with. Aside from that I don't see what your last sentence has to do with anything that the IWCA is doing.

I don't think that she represented anything in any more galling a manner than anybody else when it comes down to it. Is it any better when the same old shit gets served up by somebody with a smiling face and a disguised agenda?

 

[poster342002]

When Thatch finally resigned I felt elated for about 30 seconds, then I realised the Tories were still in power and my elation evaporated.

And then the realisation that because she was gone, they would remain in power.

 

[LLETSA]

And what did you think when everyone promptly forgot the last umpteen years and began supporting the tories again because "nice Mr Major" was in charge?

The Tories had time to recover between 1990 and '92. Even if Thatcher had remained leader they would have won that election. In fact, it could be argued that Thatcherism won in 1997 and in every subsequent election and will go on doing so. And not only in the UK.

 

[poster342002]

I couldn't give too fucks whether people remember her spitting image puppet or not. The point is her legacy, which I was referring to, in terms of her political values, is stronger than it has ever been. And removing her from office and replacing her first with that nice Mr Major then that nice Mr Blair only helped that.

Yep - and when they replace Blair with nice Mr Brown it'll strengthen the system still further and cause what pitiful levels of political awareness and activism there are in this country to reduce even further.

 

[poster342002]

The Tories had time to recover between 1990 and '92. Even if Thatcher had remained leader they would have won that election. In fact, it could be argued that Thatcherism won in 1997 and in every subsequent election and will go on doing so. And not only in the UK.

I think there's some truth in that, but I also remember the depressing way the tories surged in the opinion polls as soon as she had resigned.

 

[butchersapron]

As I've pointed out elsewhere, what I'm saying has got nothing to do with the IWCA, which just happens to be an organisation I'm in agreement with. Aside from that I don't see what your last sentence has to do with anything that the IWCA is doing.

I don't think that she represented anything in any more galling a manner than anybody else when it comes down to it. Is it any better when the same old shit gets served up by somebody with a smiling face and a disguised agenda?

Well, the IWCA do have a stratgey and by allingning yourself with them i'm presuming that you agree with it. One of the central point of that stratgey is the need for working class victories - not massive victories that the papers will take notice of, but a series of little victories that build up commuinity confidence and belief in w/c capabilities. Now, i don't think either of us is stupid enough to think that thatcher going changed anything in a substantial way, but it's certainly something that can contribute to fostering the sort of w/c solidarity talked about above. It's one of those victories that people can builld on without changing the world.

And i'm afraid that we're going to have to disagree if you think thatcher offred the only Tory appraochand policies at that time.

I never had you down for an ultra-left miserablist btw.

 

[LLETSA]

Well, the IWCA do have a stratgey and by allingning yourself with them i'm presuming that you agree with it. One of the central point of that stratgey is the need for working class victories - not massive victories that the papers will take notice of, but a series of little victories that build up commuinity confidence and belief in w/c capabilities. Now, i don't think either of us is stupid enough to think that thatcher going changed anything in a substantial way, but it's certainly something that can contribute to fostering the sort of w/c solidarity talked about above. It's one of those victories that people can builld on without changing the world.

And i'm afraid that we're going to have to disagree if you think thatcher offred the only Tory appraochand policies at that time.

I never had you down for an ultra-left miserablist btw.

I am a miserablist (politically) but not ultra-left....

I accept what you say about building up working class self confidence, but, as I said, I would distinguish between the working class victory over the poll tax and Thatcher's resignation.

I don't think that Thatcherism in its classic version offered the only Tory approach at the time; it clearly didn't. However, as we see now with the policies of all the major parties, she set the agenda from which nobody dares to veer. Within the framework of that agenda, essentially Thatcherite policies can be dressed up any old how. It is already a commonplace to say that New Labour has gone further than Thatcher ever dared. The same will apply to a government led by Brown, Clarke, Cameron or Davies. Or Merckel (sp?), Sarkozy (sp?) or Yushenko for that matter.

 

[belboid]

Which fucking planet are you on?

I take it you were highlighting the points you held objections to.

Well, if you can't recognise how Europe is much less of a 'problem' than it was in her day (witness Clarks pronouncements in the recent election battle) or how the complete selfishness of her day has been - on a fairly superficial level I grant you - rejected, then you should get out more. It's you not living in the real world sunshine, rahther you (& LLETSA & poster) are living in one in which you simply repeat your self-seving justifications for 'its all shit, all we can do is laugh at lefties about how much cleverer we are'.

Waste of space, in effect.

 

[belboid]

The scrapping of the poll tax was a working class victory. The resignation of Thatcher was merely the shuffling of chairs among a section of the ruling class.

yeah, of course, the two were entirely unconnected.

pillock.

 

[belboid]

What was there to celebrate? Most people I knew were saying things like "Oh, fuck! Now they (the tories) will regain their popularity and get back in again!". Guess what happened - despite all the trot predictions to the contrary at the time?

I don't believe you.

 

[poster342002]

I don't believe you.

Well, I'm afraid for those of us living outside the hermetically-sealed, circle-jerk world of trotism, it was very much what was being said (and borne out to be true). Disbeleive it if you like.

Whilst I realise it is comforting to take refuge in hollow triumphalism and pyrrhic victories, it is not especially useful. Quite the opposite.

 

[belboid]

Well, I'm afraid for those of us living outside the hermetically-sealed, circle-jerk world of trotism, it was very much what was being said (and borne out to be true). Disbeleive it if you like.

I will, and do.

And your assumptions are false as well. But I know you need to make them to justify your own position, so we'll let that one go by.....

Whilst I realise it is comforting to take refuge in hollow triumphalism and pyrrhic victories, it is not especially useful. Quite the opposite.

funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing about you (& Chuck & LLETSA) and your brand of miserabalism. You, at least, are honest enough to admit you don't have a clue about the way forward.

 

[poster342002]

I will, and do.

And your assumptions are false as well. But I know you need to make them to justify your own position, so we'll let that one go by.....

Put it this way: did the tories not leap ahead in the polls the very next day and did they not then end up winning the next election? Whilst they may have done so anyway had she not resigned, once she had resigned it became a near-certainty. I remember trots I knew at the time being convinced this simply wouldn't - couldn't - happen. Unfortunately, they didn't realise that whilst they could alter reality to fit there views in their own minds, this would not transfer across to the physical plane of reality.

 

[belboid]

No, they didn't - they remained behind in the polls almost right up until the actual election. They did undergo a slight improvement, unsurprisingly, but that's a different thing.

I didn't know anyone, trot or otherwise, who thought it impossible for the tories to recover, an obviously nonsensical position. Admittedly, I didn't speak to many Millies at the time, who were still going on on there 'Red Nineties' nonsense.

 

[LLETSA]

yeah, of course, the two were entirely unconnected.

pillock.

After telling others to read the thread properly, you should take your own advice, you excitable leftie you.

I have stated several times that the two W-E-R-E connected.

 

[LLETSA]

I take it you were highlighting the points you held objections to.

Well, if you can't recognise how Europe is much less of a 'problem' than it was in her day (witness Clarks pronouncements in the recent election battle) or how the complete selfishness of her day has been - on a fairly superficial level I grant you - rejected, then you should get out more. It's you not living in the real world sunshine, rahther you (& LLETSA & poster) are living in one in which you simply repeat your self-seving justifications for 'its all shit, all we can do is laugh at lefties about how much cleverer we are'.

Waste of space, in effect.

What is supposed to so positive about being pro-EU? The left in its entirety once understood the real nature of that monster. Thatcher, despite the myth, was always pro-European, understanding its key role in defending and extending the rule of capital; her 'anti-Europeanism' (a nonsensical term) was merely based on her hostility to French and German domination. No section of the ruling class ever seriously suggested pulling out, least of all the one she represented.

The 'selfish attitudes' that the Thatcher-era symbolised have not receded; on the contrary, they have become so widespread that they are no longer considered remarkable. In fact, for much or the Thatcher era, working class solidarity and a community spirit etc etc, were far stronger than they are at present. That is because their erosion was still being worked upon. Have you really not noticed the fractured communities, the drugs epidemic and associated working class-on working class violence? (To point to only a few of the manifestations of Thatcher-era-style 'selfishness') They have obviously intensified since the 1980s, with no easing of them in sight.

Many of today's lefties do deserve to be held in contempt, but not because anybody considers themselves to be clever. (I can hardly believe the apoliticism of your arguments.) The reason being that, as exemplified by this board, they refuse to address those problems that Thatcherism and its successors have wrought on working class communities in favour of chasing after the correct formula for the ever-receding 'revolutionary party' that never provided the correct model for the western working class even when assumptions that it might were much more understandable. Collectively, the left talks only to itself.

 

[belboid]

Funny, I can't believe how apolitical your comments are. They are overwhelmingly vacuous statements of the obvious dressed up as insight.

I don't see anything particularly positive about the EU, however her hopes for how it would develop were not fully realised, far from it. Hence, it could not be considered a part of her legacy. Which was the original point, not how neo-liberalism (in various forms) is still massively dominant.

As to the 'selfish attitudes', I unsurprisingly disagree. I dont disagree that the opportunities to express any kind of real solidarity are obviously massively reduced, but would maintain that there is a stronger desire to find a way to express them than there has been for many years.

There is an extent to which you are right, I suppose, in that there are a good number of people whose hopes were raised by her removal that the world was about to change back again. And now some of them will be depressed and thinking there is no alternative, and have given up on even trying. They have belatedly come to accept Thatcherism. However, I think they are generally of a certain age (ie had work experience pre-Thatcher), and are now shrinking in number.

At the same time tho, there are also vast numbers of people attemtping to find ways to recreate some kind of community and solidarity. A hell of a lot of these are, I think even we would agree, complete toss/liberal bollocks/utopian fantasies, and will be ultimately fruitless. However, they are honest attempts, and are an indication that their is still a very strong desire to express some kind of solidarity.

It's been said various times - quite possibly by yourself - that we are in a 'back to Year Zero' position where we nede to start from scratch again, and I agree with that. We are still looking around for productive ways to organise and 'solidarise', for re-gaining the strength we have as a class. If Thatchers legacy was as strong as you state/imply, then that wouldn't be happening.

 

[poster342002]

The 'selfish attitudes' that the Thatcher-era symbolised have not receded; on the contrary, they have become so widespread that they are no longer considered remarkable.

Quite. They've become totally ingrained and institutionalised to the point where they are no longer even accepted or rejected as such; they just are. The totally individualistic, dog-eat-dog attitudes are all around to see, but have become "normalised" to the point where anyone questioning them is sniggered at and made to feel as if they've just arrived from Mars.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I will, and do.

And your assumptions are false as well. But I know you need to make them to justify your own position, so we'll let that one go by.....


funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing about you (& Chuck & LLETSA) and your brand of miserabalism. You, at least, are honest enough to admit you don't have a clue about the way forward.

Call me daft if you will belboid but if you are suggesting that I don't have a clue about 'the way forward' put your cards on the table and let's have the debate old son. I think I do have something to contribute to such a discussion and would gladly engage with you.

BTW I don't think I have ever been labelled or described as a miserabilist before , what brings you to that conclusion?

 

[belboid]

No, I was referring to poster342002 there Chuck, who has said as much himself. Not attempting to say/imply anything snidey or owt.

I wouldn't generally call you a 'miserabalist' either, tho i think your comments on this thread were going down that route (I say 'going down' as oppossed to 'gone down' as you haven't really intervened on it much)

 

[poster342002]

No, I was referring to poster342002 there Chuck, who has said as much himself.

Indeed. I'll freely admit to being fresh out of ideas as to what the dickens can be done. What I can quite clearly see, however, is that the ideas tried over and over again during the last 100 years would have worked by now if they were going to and are manifestly not going anywhere.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I take it you were highlighting the points you held objections to.

Well, if you can't recognise how Europe is much less of a 'problem' than it was in her day (witness Clarks pronouncements in the recent election battle) or how the complete selfishness of her day has been - on a fairly superficial level I grant you - rejected, then you should get out more. It's you not living in the real world sunshine, rahther you (& LLETSA & poster) are living in one in which you simply repeat your self-seving justifications for 'its all shit, all we can do is laugh at lefties about how much cleverer we are'.

Waste of space, in effect.

Sweet Betsy Belboid! Clarke as you may have realised just got hammered in the elections and would have been hammered by the Tory Party had he stood in an election of the membership. It was of course the Tories that brought Britain into Europe and the fact that Davis et al still talk about renogotiation and the Blairites about the five conditions etc show how far that the deabte has not shifted. Not that I see anything progressive about the EEC for the working class anyway.

So basing your defence on the views of candidate who went out first in the leadership race and therefore whose ideas were rejected the most isn't credible. Least of all is your back up which in your own words you admit that her selfishness has only been 'superficialy ' rejected. If it is only superficail then the essential content of this selfishness is still at its core. Not the strongest hand to play imo.

Of course she is still hated by millions, thats why they won't let her near a conference but this is different from suggesting that with her removal went her values.

In fact the Tories fascination with the market has been taken to a fine art by New Labour and New Labour have pitched their entire dialogue at the very same individualism that Thatcher identified and the very same middle classes.

 

[belboid]

In fact the Tories fascination with the market has been taken to a fine art by New Labour and New Labour have pitched their entire dialogue at the very same individualism that Thatcher identified and the very same middle classes.

about to go home, so can/will only respond to this point v briefly -

I choose this point as i think it shows why I have a problem with calling it 'Thatchers legacy' - labours new found terminology, worldview etc, are only in part based upon what Thatcher did - far more they are based on the vastly different needs of world capital - they had made the shift to supply side, proto-neo-liberal (apologies for making up such a horrid word) policies came before her election. i think there is too much credit being given to her for changes which she wasn't really responsible for, and many of her wholesale reactionary notions (lets chuck the family into the pot here too as an example - hopefully a better one than my earliers) have not been followed.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

about to go home, so can/will only respond to this point v briefly -

I choose this point as i think it shows why I have a problem with calling it 'Thatchers legacy' - labours new found terminology, worldview etc, are only in part based upon what Thatcher did - far more they are based on the vastly different needs of world capital - they had made the shift to supply side, proto-neo-liberal (apologies for making up such a horrid word) policies came before her election. i think there is too much credit being given to her for changes which she wasn't really responsible for, and many of her wholesale reactionary notions (lets chuck the family into the pot here too as an example - hopefully a better one than my earliers) have not been followed.

ok catch up later