What kind of a countryside do we want in the UK?

[Bernie Gunther]

Yep, once you actually get the hang of what they mean by all that apparent mystical gibberish it seems to work fine as a language in which to talk about the range of stuff that they're interested in. The problem is that it's a total turn-off for anyone who isn't a new age hippy, so it alienates most outsiders.

That's a problem if you think it would be good for such eco-villages to work in the context of existing rural communities and gain their support and trust. In Findhorn's case, my impression is that they've been around for so long now, that the locals have mostly gotten used to them, but I might be wrong about that because my info comes from people who have been there (who are also new age hippies) rather than first hand.

 

[totaladdict]

Not quite clear which place you mean, that one in Mexico?

yeah, it's in mexico - about an hour south of mexico city. the houses were/are all pretty lavish - lots of money has been spent. the original members were a travelling circus apparently, and then settled up in the mountains when they had enough money etc.

the most disappointing thing was the food and the lavishness of the whole operation. their garden was so small, and so few of them actually worked on it.

some of the places up there were basically holiday homes, unoccupied a lot of the time. there appeared to be a fair bit of resentment towards them by the locals - not helped by the fact that their land included a mini cliff type thing that had historically been a look-out over the town below. so access was only through the village - which was basically a no-no for the campesinos.

i was wwoofing on a farm nearby and just visited for a few days - so my view was part skewed by the impression i got from locals. for example, i remember sitting on the bus and watching all the women start gossiping (and looking diapprovingly) when they saw these tourists turn up at the farm laden with bags from the supermarket as we drove by.

 

[totaladdict]

also, it struck me - after going to a few eco-villages (in central america) - that there was a lot that was for effect - lots that was more about looking green than actually being green. too many people doing their shopping at supermarkets - "just essentials" - but then you see some sliced white bread, that kind of thing.

and all relying on income from tourists, or free labour from innocent do-gooders. i dunno, i got pretty cynical - but i haven't spent time anywhere in britain. strikes me that with land here being even less accessible, they're likely to include even less everyday people than they did over there. at the same time, people there were generally even more removed from local people mostly because they were immigrants - (comparatively) rich ones at that. so i suppose it's not that unusual that there was such a huge disconnection there.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Interesting. I wonder what the reasons are for it turning out that way? I'm pretty sure that communities of a few hundred people with their own food, energy and recycling systems are the optimal pattern for sustainabilty, so what is it that needs fixing in these cases? Something about connecting with the locals? Something about having a cash surplus to spend in supermarkets?

 

[totaladdict]

i don't know. it would be interesting to hear from people who have spent more time at a wider range of places... especially places in the UK. i'm aware that my experiences might not be representative, so i'm a bit reticent about placing too much emphasis on them.

but to tie in with the wider question, we're talking about a countryside that is already, on the whole, populated (to varying degrees). and is already being farmed. and there's both a fairly deep attachment to, and resentment of, farmers. attachment to a semi-romantic vision of leathery tanned skin, a broad regional accent, simplicity, honesty and humour of the farm worker. and resentment of the rich, land rover driving, wax-jacket wearing, local bully land owner.

projects aimed at sustainability in the countryside will probably only integrate properly if they are, at least in part, the result of actions taken by people already living in the countryside.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> projects aimed at sustainability in the countryside will probably only integrate properly if they are, at least in part, the result of actions taken by people already living in the countryside.

Yep. That's why I thought your reminder of the countryside and class thread on UKP was so timely.

I'm trying to figure out how to make stuff like a mass eco-village movement happen in order to achieve sustainability, not so that hippies can commune with fairies or so that people who've sold out of the London housing market with huge profits, can live out romantic fantasies while wearing nice Liberty textiles.

So I think something like what General Ludd was setting out to do on that other thread is an extremely useful project, because a class composition analysis of the countryside is probably an essential tool for understanding how to drive such a movement from its natural starting point, the people who already live there.

 

[totaladdict]

in the here and now, most things are going to require at least token support from the local parish council - and probably more than token support, actual involvement, where possible.

parish councils don't have much power to actually make stuff happen, but they seem pretty effective at stopping things from happening if they don't feel included. most pc's contain the keys to power within a village - often not the council itself, but the individuals on it. so they basically have to be onside or there are going to be tensions right from the off.

(sorry, not much time at the moment - be good to get some input from some more people who're living in the countryside really...)

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I agree that some input from people living in the countryside is essential.

In the meantime, here's some research findings from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation

 

[totaladdict]

yeah, they have loads of interesting research. i got some stuff from there recently for a funding bid i'm trying to get together.

just looking through the link for Colin Ward that you posted elsewhere and came across this: Country Life - looks loike Alternative Agriculture: a history from the black death to the present day could be worth a look... have you read it?

"In the late nineteenth century phase of alternative agriculture, Peter Kropotkin argued most eloquently in favour of labour-intensive work on the land. Demanding more horticulture, he stressed first and foremost the common sense of growing fruit and vegetables at home to replace rising imports, but he also pleaded the good sense of providing work for all.

A policy of 'low labour and high technology' had met the situation until 1870, he argued, but after that it was no longer appropriate.The same may be said today. A notable characteristic of many horticultural ventures is again their labour-intensivity, and in a climate of opinion which also acknowledges labour as a therapy, it is striking how often thehorticulturists themselves stress the value of their work, despite the hard manual labour. Since far-sighted individuals have forecast the impossibility of restoring full employment now that modern technology is daily reducing the work required, we plainly await another Peter Kropotkin to pronounce the same lesson all over again. The continuing obsessive drive to foster technology and shed labour at all costs belongs appropriately to the phase of mainstream agriculture, and not to the alternative phase ..."

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well, I wouldn't particularly like to spend all my time doing agricultural labour, but that's certainly not what Kropotkin is advocating.

He's instead proposing a balanced mix of mental and physical work, faciliated by integrating self-governing communities as far as possible with their support systems for horticulture and light industry. If Kropotkin had had a contemporary scientific understanding of sustainability, then he'd no doubt also have advocated local energy and recycling systems.

High-energy agriculture requires large capital investments, and weakens the power of labour by replacing it as far as possible with non-renewable energy.

If you're largely self-sufficient in food and other basic needs, and can get there without incurring crippling interest payments, then you're in a much better position to resist the imposition of work through the power of capital.

I was just reading that very article by Ward and thinking about buying the book he refers to. It does sound very interesting doesn't it?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Quoting again from that book Ward is reviewing

"... judging by the experience of the three previous phases of alternative agriculture, the strong assumption of our age that omniscient govemments will lead the way out of economic problems will not, in practice, serve. The solutions are more likely to come from below, from the initiatives of individuals, singly or in groups, groping their way, after many trials and errors, towards fresh undertakings. They will follow their own hunches, ideals, inspirations and obsessions, and along the way some will even be dismissed as harmless lunatics."

I can't help thinking of a very perceptive quote from Ross Ashby I came across earlier today.

Every system changes its mind by breaking.

 

[Funky_monks]

I'm a nit-picking bastard....

Yep, once you actually get the hang of what they mean by all that apparent mystical gibberish it seems to work fine as a language in which to talk about the range of stuff that they're interested in. The problem is that it's a total turn-off for anyone who isn't a new age hippy, so it alienates most outsiders.

The new age hippies are the outsiders in the countryside, IME, so it alienates those who aren't outsiders and dont come to the country to 'commune with mother earth' and to a lesser extent 'discover the moon pixies' (Psylocybe have a lot to answer for)

 

[ska invita]

link:
Wild herds may stampede across Britain under plan for huge reserves

About 800,000 hectares of Britain have been identified as places where traditional farming could be replaced over time by wilderness nature reserves, possibly inhabited by vanished species such as elk, moose, beaver and wild horse... [more]

 

[chooch]

link:
Wild herds may stampede across Britain under plan for huge reserves

The Dutch government has been experimenting with this. See this (pdf) for example.

 

[ska invita]

That corridor thing is key (re:dutch case)- although much of the proposed UK sites are in scotland, a modest "corridoring" of English sites would be very effective in overcoming the "islandisation" of wild areas (what few of them there are).