What kind of a countryside do we want in the UK?

[Poi E]

And I want to see 100 different apple varieties growing again.

For sure. I think the US is the repository of the widest variety of apples these days. England makes the finest apple juice I have ever had.

 

[Idaho]

Maybe we can't feed ourselves anymore with the land available, but FFS something has to be done to safeguard independent production of some foodstuffs.

We can feed ourselves many times over with the land available. The problem is that prices are so depressed that it simply isn't worth producing food unless you have large scale production and attract subsidies.

OK - 3 laws to change the country:

• I think we should introduce a 40 mile rule. Certain designated crops can't be transported commercially more than 40 miles - carrots, potatoes, cabbages, etc.
  
• There should also be a law that no food retailer can have more than 20 outlets and that loss-leading is illegal.
  
• All towns and cities must make prime central space available for daily fresh food markets run by independent traders.

 

[Funky_monks]

I think we should build ecovillages, and equip them with useful things, and equip them with useful things like solar panels and wind turbines and space to grow organic vegetables, and give people who want to opt out of the rat race, and live on benefits the option of moving out of the cities to build the ecovillages, and live there.

Oi'm be spyin some funny people over there father...

Wherezat son?

Owwer there, they've got long hair like girls but they're men father....

They be hippies son........fetch my shotgun.....


Get orf moi laaaaandd!

 

[Roadkill]

Country Life

Working in the rain cutting up wood
Didn't do my little brother much good
Lost two fingers in a chainsaw bite
All he does now is drink and fight
Sells a bit of grass, hots up cars
Talks of travel, never gets far
Loves his kids, left his wife -
An everyday story of country life.

And the red brick cottage where I was born
Is the empty shell of a holiday home
Most of the year there's no-one there
The village is dead, and they don't care
Now we live on the edge of town
Haven't been back since the pub closed down
One man's family pays the price
For another man's vision of country life.

My old man is eighty-four
His generation won the war
He left the farm forever when
They only kept on one in ten
Landed gentry, country snobs,
Where were you when they lost their jobs?
No-one marched or subsidised
To save a country way of life!

Silent fields, empty lanes
Drifting smoke, distant flames
Picture postcard hills on fire
Cattle burning in funeral pyres
Out to graze they look so sweet
We hate the blood, we want the meat
Buy me a beer, I'll take my knife
Cut you a slice of country life.

If you want cheap food, well here's the deal
Family farms are brought to heel
With hammer blows of size and scale
Foot and mouth the final nail
The coffin of our English dream
Lies out on the village green
While agri-barons, CAP in hand
Strip this green and pleasant land
Of meadow, woodland, hedgerow, pond
What remains gets built upon
No trains, no jobs
No shops no pubs

What went wrong?
Country life.
It's a little bit of country life!

(Show of Hands)

Not a particularly thoughtful contribution, but I do love those lyrics. FWIW I agree with Idaho about the effect supermarkets, glocal markets and the CAP have had on the countryside. I'd certainly like to see more food produced and consumed locally.

 

[Poi E]

Nice one, Roadkill.

 

[Roadkill]

At some point I'll read the thread properly and make a serious contribution...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

There's a rather interesting old out-of-print book here that has a lot of information about how pre-WW2 farming worked in the UK.

Scroll down once you're past the intro page and look for "Trow-Smith, Robert. English Husbandry: From the Earliest Times to the Present Day."

Tons of other good stuff on that site too.

edited to add: bugger, he's changed the copyright system and you need to order the one I mentioned. Still plenty of good public domain stuff though.

"Ernle, Lord. English Farming Past and Present." is a reasonable substitute for Trow-Smith.

 

[kyser_soze]

Bernie, do you do anythign other than read stuff? Even by Urban standards you've read ludicously wide and deep...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I see some problems that I want to fix, so I go looking for the tools to do it.

There's some good ones on that site.

 

[Poi E]

At some point I'll read the thread properly and make a serious contribution...

Thought that was pretty serious!

 

[Bernie Gunther]

There's a bit near the beginning of architect Christopher Alexander's great book "A Pattern Language" where he says roughly.

If the population distribution is weighted too far towards small villages, then civilisation will never emerge. If the population distribution is weighted too far towards big cities, then the earth will go to ruin because the population isn't where it needs to be to take care of it

He's got some rather interesting idea about how to tackle the implied problems too. For example, he suggests that we stop building on land that can be used for food or biodiversity, because once lost to concrete, it can take lifetimes to regenerate it, if you ever can at all. So for example, build on hillsides to leave fertile valleys, where they still exist, for agriculture. Or regenerate land already ruined, rather than building on land that hasn't been.

He also suggests that we gradually modify our settlement patterns over the generations in order to get a better distribution. For example in a region, one big city, say of a million, 10 big towns, say of 100,000, 100 smaller towns, say of 10,000 and so on. More or less evenly distributed.

Within that pattern he suggests that mile-wide fingers of green countryside interlace settlements, so that nobody is further than a mile or so from the places where their food is grown. (I'd also add that where land is already built on, it's still very possible to reclaim some space for growing things, its not as good for biodiversity as the countryside, but still lots better than concrete)

We can add to that, some of the ideas developed in experiments like eco-villages and the Cuban Special Period. Source-separating toilets and local nutrient recycling to prevent near irreplaceable phosphorous from going down the toilet. Localised energy systems, so that we are not dependent on vast capital projects, sustainable but problematic ones like monster wind farms or unsustainable and undesireable like nuclear fuel and power plants. Integration of communities with their own agriculture and light industry to become as self supporting as their size will permit and cooperating to support the resources that only make sense at larger population sizes like universities and hospitals.

If we want to picture a sustainable future, then it probably looks something like that. Gradually introducing patterns of life that minimise dependencies on harmful and unsustainable patterns like capitalism and industrial agriculture.

 

[Trufflepig]

There's a bit near the beginning of architect Christopher Alexander's great book "A Pattern Language"...... If we want to picture a sustainable future, then it probably looks something like that. Gradually introducing patterns of life that minimise dependencies on harmful and unsustainable patterns like capitalism and industrial agriculture.

Glad to hear mention of this great resource, been studying his works pretty intensely for the last few years. A Pattern language played a large part in my decision to study environmental architecture (well, the CAT course) from software engineering. His keynote to software engineers is a good intro from here http://www.patternlanguage.com/archive/ieee/ieeetext.htm

Rural land use is a really hot debate on the course, given that it is based in rural Machynlleth with the largest demographic being Londoners followed by Bristolians.

One obstacle I've looked at closely is planning policy guidelines directed at increasing suburban housing density. I have concerns that these directives + massive housing price increases are increasing the amount of over managed land, for example the manicured lawns, decked or paved gardens. Larger gardens and former indusrial sites constituting an unofficial countryside can be a great source of biodiversity.

I really hope that Bernie's quoted Alexandrine pattern will be applied in the UK. A blurring of the boundaries between town and country.

It can seem at times to me that rural land use in south Wales is in a battle between the architypal farmers and the so called alternative. The farmers - financially motivated (read straight-jacketed) into pesticide heavy farming and the "Alternative" crowd with their myths, superstitions and greenwash.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> It can seem at times to me that rural land use in south Wales is in a battle between the architypal farmers and the so called alternative. The farmers - financially motivated (read straight-jacketed) into pesticide heavy farming and the "Alternative" crowd with their myths, superstitions and greenwash.

Alexander has been a big influence on me for some years. Very sharp and far-sighted guy.

In the context of the battle you're describing you might find this thread interesting.

 

[parallelepipete]

edited to add: bugger, he's changed the copyright system and you need to order the one I mentioned. Still plenty of good public domain stuff though.

You can still get it free - if you click on 'Don't join' you simply get a guilt-inducing message pleading for cash. I assume that's because it's not out of copyright yet. You get sent an e-mail to start a download of a personalised PDF for "research purposes only".

 

[parallelepipete]

Bernie, do you do anythign other than read stuff? Even by Urban standards you've read ludicously wide and deep...

I've wondered the same. I've got a sodding huge queue of stuff to be read now

 

[davgraham]

We can feed ourselves many times over with the land available. The problem is that prices are so depressed that it simply isn't worth producing food unless you have large scale production and attract subsidies.

OK - 3 laws to change the country:

• I think we should introduce a 40 mile rule. Certain designated crops can't be transported commercially more than 40 miles - carrots, potatoes, cabbages, etc.
  
• There should also be a law that no food retailer can have more than 20 outlets and that loss-leading is illegal.
  
• All towns and cities must make prime central space available for daily fresh food markets run by independent traders.

There is something wrong with the overall picture being painted here - something we are all missing [me included]. If agriculutral income is depressed [which I accept it is] and is likely to stay being depressed unless some profitable use for agricultural land is found and other than for small niche markets, there isn't any, and EU subsidies are to be reduced [when and over what time scale?] - how come the price of agricultural land is not falling?

just wondering like

gra

 

[totaladdict]

There is something wrong with the overall picture being painted here - something we are all missing [me included]. If agriculutral income is depressed [which I accept it is] and is likely to stay being depressed unless some profitable use for agricultural land is found and other than for small niche markets, there isn't any, and EU subsidies are to be reduced [when and over what time scale?] - how come the price of agricultural land is not falling?

just wondering like

gra

one reason (possibly): there's an increasing demand for land. as prescott says we need houses, some of those are being built on agricultural land. while most agricultural land won't currently get planning permission, increasing amounts of it will open up to that possibility as settlement boundaries expand and local development frameworks incorporate the 500,000+ new houses planned over the next x number of years.

in addition, middle class townies moving to the countryside for 'lifestyle' reasons produce a pressure that doesn't rely on actually making a living off that land, just having it there as hobby-type income.

 

[totaladdict]

little bit of semi interesting (very) local info:

Total number of farms: (1995) 996 (2003) 1435
No. of people employed: (1995) 3757 (2003) 3185

so while the number of farms has increased, the numbers of people working on them has decreased. there are a variety of reasons for this - but as mentioned a few times already, a reversal of this trend, to see more people paid a decent wage for working the land, would provide significant benefits for us country folk.

 

[citydreams]

Total number of farms: (1995) 996 (2003) 1435

How accurate are these figures? My family gave up egg farming because it had become uneconomic (and troublesome) for them. With EU funding they've converted to a chilli farm. Do they still count? And how many new farms are nothing more than a small field growing rocket?

 

[totaladdict]

How accurate are these figures? My family gave up egg farming because it had become uneconomic (and troublesome) for them. With EU funding they've converted to a chilli farm. Do they still count? And how many new farms are nothing more than a small field growing rocket?

it's not that detailed: http://www.comdata.co.uk/idagr.html

Source: Agricultural Census Branch, Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs (DEFRA)
Updates Annual. Data generally available August/September of year following the survey.

Edit: the example above is for Mid Suffolk, one of the most rural districts in the country.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

totaladdict. I've taken the liberty of copying that very interesting link you posted last night over here - http://www.eafl.org.uk

I spent a little bit of time reading it this morning and I'm really quite impressed by some of their activities. Key for me is what you might call the disintermediation of farmer and consumer.

EAFL is creating direct links between farmers and consumers. It is assisting farmers to change to more sustainable production & marketing systems, consumers to shop more locally and co-operatively for good food and retailers to buy local and organic direct from the producer.

 

[totaladdict]

yeah, seems like they're doing some really good stuff. i hadn't looked at the site for a little while, but i'm well impressed at the way they're moving on and growing.

think i might have to get in contact with them again, seems like most of what they do is in norfolk and essex... need to get them into sunny suffolk.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

If you do, please keep us informed on here. There are some small movements towards this sort of thing in my area (the Wirral) but this seems much more developed and it's probably going to generate lots of stuff we can learn from.

 

[Stigmata]

I´d like the gradual return of wild forests and large predators (wolves, wildcats and bears).

Same here. Britain used to be essentially one big forest, now it's supposedly the most sparsely wooded country in Europe.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The tricky bit here is resources. A reasonable estimate for sustainability is 3ha of land per capita, at least 1/6 of it pretty good land.

That breaks down as 0.5 ha for food (this is the bit that needs to be good land), 1 ha for pasture, biodiversity and so on and about 1.5 ha for energy systems, which might well include a fair proportion of managed woodlands.

That would allow us to continue with approximately our present per capita energy use, food consumption and so on, but do so sustainably.

The UK has about 25m ha total, of which say 6.4m ha is classified as arable.

It has 60m people right now, with large inequalities in resource distribution.

Unsustainable energy use is what permits this situation to exist.

Edited to add: you *can* get better numbers, but that requires significant re-arrangements of settlement patterns and a bunch of other fairly radical measures to substantially lower energy use, increase food yield per ha etc.

 

[parallelepipete]

The tricky bit here is resources. A reasonable estimate for sustainability is 3ha of land per capita, at least 1/6 of it pretty good land.

That breaks down as 0.5 ha for food (this is the bit that needs to be good land), 1 ha for pasture, biodiversity and so on and about 1.5 ha for energy systems, which might well include a fair proportion of managed woodlands.

That would allow us to continue with approximately our present per capita energy use, food consumption and so on, but do so sustainably.

The UK has about 25m ha total, of which say 6.4m ha is classified as arable.

It has 60m people right now, with large inequalities in resource distribution.

Unsustainable energy use is what permits this situation to exist.

Brief thought: then there seems no way round that except a reduction in population, which can only be a very-long-term objective (and of course has implications for reproductive rights, immigration etc.).

BTW, where do the figures for productivity/ha come from?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Brief thought: then there seems no way round that except a reduction in population, which can only be a very-long-term objective (and of course has implications for reproductive rights, immigration etc.).

BTW, where do the figures for productivity/ha come from?

Pimentel. "Food, Energy & Society". You can also find the base figures here but without the full justification. I know one can get better numbers given different assumptions. Pimentel's assumptions are sort of "business as usual only sustainable"

I'm very dubious about focussing on population though.

 

[parallelepipete]

Pimentel. "Food, Energy & Society". You can also find the base figures here but without the full justification. I know one can get better numbers given different assumptions. Pimentel's assumptions are sort of "business as usual only sustainable"

I'm very dubious about focussing on population though.

Thanks for the link Bernie. Re. population, I realise the drawbacks. I was just pondering on the fact that post-green revolution, there's not much scope for increasing sustainable food energy production/ha unless the UK goes almost completely vegetarian, which seems similarly problematic (though ethically less troubling).

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Some kinds of land aren't much use for growing cereals, fruit, vegetables or whatever, but they work fine as pasture. Also woodlands can be used for pig forage etc. So I'd expect to see meat continue to be a part of a sustainable UK diet to some degree, but in quantities significantly reduced in comparison with the present

The most effective high-intensity organic approaches I know of are rather labour intensive, along the lines of 19th century French market gardening. As the Cuban examples show, you can find ways to grow fruit and veg this way even if the land in question has already been concreted over. Again it really helps if you do this integrated with communities. Both work and meat animals can contribute their manure to it very usefully, if kept locally.

 

[Poi E]

Just wondering what percentage of the UK is rural land? I'd heard about 70% of thereabouts but can't find anything to back this up.