what is your view on israel's territorial claims?

[ViolentPanda]

That's not strictly speaking true -- it is undoutedly racists who say that cranial dimension crap has an affect on human intelligence -- but anthropologists do use cranial dimension to tell races apart.

The problem being that cranial dimensions in supposed "racial" groupings tend to except the rule as often as they adhere to it unless you're comparing down at something like family level. Otherwise, unless one is talking about a properly "closed" society (geographical, cultural and social barriers to "mixing") then it's a pplicability is extremely limited. What works for classifying small tribal groupings in the Amazon rainforest isn't particularly effective at a larger scale.

 

[tangentlama]

That's not strictly speaking true -- it is undoutedly racists who say that cranial dimension crap has an affect on human intelligence -- but anthropologists do use cranial dimension to tell races apart.

Anthropologists have used all kinds of physical, cultural, and existential markers to classify variations in ethnicity, but cranial(+dental)) measurement is but one measurement, and is most useful (as far as I'm concerned) for classifying evolutionary hominoid fossil record. Cranial measurements are really useful in evolutionary terms when regarding the increase in brain capacity, imo.
http://www.dorak.info/evolution/human.html

Evolution has not stopped for the hominids either.

n 2002, a new giant ape troop was discovered in the Democratic Republic of Congo. These apes share many features of both chimpanzees and gorillas. According to a report from BBC News Online [1], the apes have large black faces, are two meters tall and make nests on the ground, all like gorillas. However, they live hundreds of kilometers from any other gorilla troops.

Extinction through genocide and environmental encroachment in 10 years: Gorilla and chimp numbers have dropped more than 50% since 1983 (2003 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2921669.stm). If they don't die through being hunted commerically for food (!)then maybe Ebola will get them


As for territorial claims, I favour two civil administrations overseeing two provinces but still consider that whole area to be 'One' from a Jeruslamcentric POV, and needing to support rather than undermine each other. More importantly, will there actually be anything left to claim, since the Dead Sea is dying, and is estimated to vanish by 2050 if we don't address the problem right now. Every year, the lake's level drops another metre. It's imperitive to come to a solution which ceases the conflict.

The Dead Sea must be saved and international cooperation alone can save it. The decline of the Dead Sea was accelerated in large part because of the dire need for drinking water for the people of Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Diversion of the Jordan River in both Israel and Jordan has curtailed a large part of the historic inflow of fresh water to the Dead Sea. The demand for fresh water continues to grow and it is impossible to turn back the clock. Moreover, wise water management is not sufficient to address the problems. Solutions outside the Jordan River basin must be sought. They must be large scale and comprehensive.http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002

US continued support of illegal house building and infrastructure (water/electric/sewage/roads/comms etc) in the face of ecological disaster seems foolhardy. The US Government says one thing about the illegal building, but actually does nothing to prevent the funding of it from their side of the pond, so investment from outside and inside Israel continues for the occupied territories. It's imperitive that Palestine can rebuild, asap, since lost water through crumbling infrastructure only exacerbates the problem. But before that crisis can be addressed, Israel needs to stop building illegally on Palestinian State, and recognise it's sovereignty.

Until Israel stops all illegal building projects in Palestine and subsidising Jewish immigrants to settle in Palestine, it cannot be said to have recognised the Palestinian State. Until Hamas renounces it's claim to the whole of pre-1948 Palestine, it cannot be said to have recognised the Israeli State.

 

[rachamim18]

A lesson in comprehension...

GMartews: Actually you have it wrong, it does not say "don't collect the dew," but that is neither here nor there. I think that you need to read my posts carefully becuse you are clearly mucking it up. I am not a fundamentalist, nor am I religious AT ALL. Then you end that odd post by asking me why i reject my Scriptures. Are you a bit confused?

Panda: Your comments on cranial dimensions are all beside the point. the point is, THEY ARE USED. Nino, admit your ignorance please, or at the very least stop harping on soemthing you clearly have no understanding of.

Tangent: Thank you for the voice of reason.

 

[tangentlama]

go to sleep, lama.

 

[bluestreak]

quite a question... i can't reallyanswer any of those.ideally israel shouldn'thave been puttogetherlikeitis. in a modern context itexists, getoverit and learn tolivetogetherinequalityyoucunts. perhaps icould votefor the pre67 option.

 

[Fruitloop]

quite a question... i can't reallyanswer any of those.ideally israel shouldn'thave been puttogetherlikeitis. in a modern context itexists, getoverit and learn tolivetogetherinequalityyoucunts. perhaps icould votefor the pre67 option.

Problems with the space bar? Or pastiche Roman freize stylee?

edit: sorry am drunk

 

[Gmart]

Look, if Scripture says: "Don't wear red on Monday" it is not open for interpretation. Some things, most things are, but the theology behind the belief of "Eretz Yisroel" is right and exact.

I am not a fundamentalist, nor am I religious AT ALL.

It's not me who sounds confused.

For the record I don't think that peace will occur in the I/P area until there is one free religion, non-discriminatory state, which is successfully trading and becoming wealthy together.

Israel seems to be under the impression that their oppression will go on unnoticed and accepted by the US among others.

The Palestinians may need to accept that they have been invaded, and that eventually the Jews will have to accept other religions as equal. There is no place in this world for one set of people thinking that their religion is superior to other religions. Any one person can be 'right' from their perspective, but that doesn't mean that they can impose their religion or their will on others.

If the issues are not addressed with tolerance and freedom for all, then sooner or later a bomb will fall and there will be no area to fight over.

 

[nino_savatte]

GMartews: Actually you have it wrong, it does not say "don't collect the dew," but that is neither here nor there. I think that you need to read my posts carefully becuse you are clearly mucking it up. I am not a fundamentalist, nor am I religious AT ALL. Then you end that odd post by asking me why i reject my Scriptures. Are you a bit confused?

Panda: Your comments on cranial dimensions are all beside the point. the point is, THEY ARE USED. Nino, admit your ignorance please, or at the very least stop harping on soemthing you clearly have no understanding of.

Tangent: Thank you for the voice of reason.

You patronisng racist shit. Your insistence on 'cranial dimensions' being the benchmark of measuring ethnicity is nothing less than racist. I know a racist when I see one and you're a racist.

Over to you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: Your comments on cranial dimensions are all beside the point.

To you, maybe. In the context of the argument they're not "beside the point" at all.

the point is, THEY ARE USED.

No, the point is that they're a small part of a large classificatory armoury used by anthropologists, and are only used in certain limited circumstances.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

i'd had it go back to the 1878 lines if it we at all possible, but seing as that isn't 1948 will do, 67 was already after the disporia... and frankly to accept the green line is to still allow 2 thrids of the indignious population of the area to remain eternal refugees...

regardless of race or ethnicity to allow 2 thirds of anywhere population to be permenanlty dispossed and still some near 70 + years on to be living in temporay accommidation which is more than dehumanising is frankly nothing short of state sponsored genocide....

 

[nino_savatte]

To you, maybe. In the context of the argument they're not "beside the point" at all.


No, the point is that they're a small part of a large classificatory armoury used by anthropologists, and are only used in certain limited circumstances.

This is what I've been trying to get across to our thick-headed friend: that his application of cranial dimensions is fundamentally racist as it bears little resemblance to reality.

 

[bluestreak]

i'd had it go back to the 1878 lines if it we at all possible, but seing as that isn't 1948 will do, 67 was already after the disporia... and frankly to accept the green line is to still allow 2 thrids of the indignious population of the area to remain eternal refugees...

regardless of race or ethnicity to allow 2 thirds of anywhere population to be permenanlty dispossed and still some near 70 + years on to be living in temporay accommidation which is more than dehumanising is frankly nothing short of state sponsored genocide....

i find i agree with this. the simple truth is that israel needs to be a country where race and religion are not signifiers to the quality of life and the status as a citizen, where land and water rights are equal, and where the government is broadly working to improve the rights of all citizens regardless.

 

[tangentlama]

You patronisng racist shit. Your insistence on 'cranial dimensions' being the benchmark of measuring ethnicity is nothing less than racist. I know a racist when I see one and you're a racist.

Over to you.

Where did he do that please?

Quotes/post number will do fine.

 

[nino_savatte]

Where did he do that please?

Quotes/post number will do fine.

He's done it plenty of times before (last year if you recall) and no, I'm not trawling through the archives for your benefit.

 

[tangentlama]

No worries. You're talking about the 'astronaut' ?

 

[nino_savatte]

No worries. You're talking about the 'astronaut' ?

Sorry didn't mean to be abrupt...matters outside cyberspace you understand. No, I'm talking about R18; he used the "cranial dimensions" argument to put forward a case that Jewish identity (and that is the key word here) could be determined mainly through the use of such methodologies.

 

[Blackmushroom]

A more intersting question would have been How Long Do you expect Israel to Last.

I have the feeling that once the oil runs out in the middle east and the US lose interest in that region, they'll soon abandon Israel. Then when no ones looking they'll wear it down and re-conquer it, just like they did with the crusader states.

I give it 50 to 75 years at most.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

A more intersting question would have been How Long Do you expect Israel to Last.

I have the feeling that once the oil runs out in the middle east and the US lose interest in that region, they'll soon abandon Israel. Then when no ones looking they'll wear it down and re-conquer it, just like they did with the crusader states.

I give it 50 to 75 years at most.

bollocks, this is exaclty the rhetoric which the fat assain used to use to justify his brutality...

whilst it can be argueed that no one wanted isreal where it is today other than the the europeans the entire region is not so niaeve as to suggest that the country isn't viable, it may not be called isreal after the oil runs out but the land mass isn't going to dissappear and neither are the european settlers going to shift out of there either...

 

[ViolentPanda]

A more intersting question would have been How Long Do you expect Israel to Last.

I have the feeling that once the oil runs out in the middle east and the US lose interest in that region, they'll soon abandon Israel. Then when no ones looking they'll wear it down and re-conquer it, just like they did with the crusader states.

I give it 50 to 75 years at most.

Depends entirely on what you mean by "Israel".

 

[rachamim18]

GMArthews: I see that this is a confounding issue for you; How can a person say that something claims something so plainly, yet still not be a believer in said statement. Is it really that perplexing?

Your idea of a "One State Solution" is not new. However, almost all on both sides offer wholesale rejection of the idea. They do not want one state.

How is Israel opressing anyone? Do you mean checkpoints and curfews? Guess what? The PA has far more of each, and much harsher rules. Doyou mean a "Barrier" that is running almost along the proposed international border? Well that structure has been responsible for a decrease in violent attacks emanting from areas bordered by it in the 90 plus percentile. Do you mean the closing of Israel's international borders? That is any nations's perogative and is not a form of opression when the border crossings have been targets of attacks [Karni was again targeted 5 days ago so so much for the people whining about the dearth of consumer goods entering Gaza]. Please qualify your opinion on "opressive measures."

"Palestinians have been invadeed." "Palestinians" only came into existence [as a people] in 1948. They have never had a nation so your comment makes no sense whatsoever.

"Jews have to accept other religions as equals." Do you mean Israelis? In any event, neither Jews nor Jewish Israelis see themselves as superiuor [on a whole] to any other people. The Israeli Basic LAw [i.e. Constitution] guarantees complere equality and freedom to ALL religions accept in areas of prostelyzation. By the way, that is the first time that the land in question has EVER had that. Bit ironic in light of your misguided opinion.

Nino: Panda, Astronaut, and Tangent have all already stated that cranial dimensions ARE accepted standards by anthropologists, I think it's time for you to demonstrate a bit of maturity and get with the program. Of course, if your aim was to actually learn or even explore the issues you wouldhave already been made aware fo this. Instead, very sadly, you are only interested in personal conflict so you keep parroting ridiculous assertions. I am a racist because anthropoligists use a method of indexing racial and ethnic differences. Ok, if you say so.

Then when Panda says it again, you completely lose the point and act as if it confrims your ridiculous assertion. Yet you deign to make fun of MY English skills?

Panda: Again, they are used. You want to say "used a little?" Fine, whatever. Yet, they are used. Gee, define obstinant.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

i find i agree with this. the simple truth is that israel needs to be a country where race and religion are not signifiers to the quality of life and the status as a citizen, where land and water rights are equal, and where the government is broadly working to improve the rights of all citizens regardless.

innit

the sad thing is that this prolly means that there will be neither a palestine or an isreal. there will be the land mass which is currently there and both a large indignious population of arabs and a large imigrant population of jewish peoples and by the time this happens one hopes a great deal of second and thrid generation mixed children too...

 

[rachamim18]

The cat's meow...

Garfield: The 1878 lines? That would be perfect because of course, as usual, you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. You think because there was a greater number of Arabs that it would means a greater amount of land. Guess again. Fact is, outside of some of the coast and the Nablus Plain, Arab settlement was rare. Jews on the other hand, both those that had roots going back 4000 years and those just returning were spread throught the rest of the land. Ergo, the 70 plus percent of total land that was allotted to the Arabs under the 19 Partition would have been given to the Jews.

48 will do? Fine, we can do that as well seeing as the Arabs would have been the ones sacraficing contigious bordersfor greter land allotment. Are you not one of the people continuously harping over contigious borders? Seems you haven';t thought this out too well at all.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

1878

now tell me about 1948 again...

 

[ginger]

Nino: Anthropologists happen to use CRANIUM dimensions as ONE FORM of ascertaining race or etnicity. IT is not definative by any means. In the case of Jews it is of no use. One form that is though are finger print indexes. Others are Y Chromosomal studies and other gene haplotypes. Like it or not, the Jews of today are by and large the direct descendants of the Israelites.

Y Chromosomal studies are of no use whatsoever as "Jewishness" travels down the maternal lines. (mitochondrial DNA studies would be more useful as this is passed down the maternal line)

We might be cultural and spiritual descendents of Avraham but there is evidence of conversions into Judaism during Temple eras.

It is innaccurate to talk about cranial measurements being useful at all because Jews are not an ethnicity. We are also a culture, a tradition, a spirituality, a religion, a music, a cuisine, an oral history, with a stubborn, awkward, ever questioning pride. There are black Jews, Arabic Jews, Chinese Jews, Western European Jews. All resemble physically the dominant phenotype of the area. This could be because Jewish people have frequently been a resented subculture and frequently rape of an ethnic minorities women is used by the dominant culture as a weapon. It could be because of intermarriage and conversion. It could be lots of things. But it is true that I am as Jewish as you are, but probably have a very different cranial measurement and therefore it is useless.

i'd had it go back to the 1878 lines if it we at all possible, but seing as that isn't 1948 will do, 67 was already after the disporia... and frankly to accept the green line is to still allow 2 thrids of the indignious population of the area to remain eternal refugees...

regardless of race or ethnicity to allow 2 thirds of anywhere population to be permenanlty dispossed and still some near 70 + years on to be living in temporay accommidation which is more than dehumanising is frankly nothing short of state sponsored genocide....

The indiginous population? Bizarre concept! Especially in an area that has as much history of different peoples passing through and settling there. I feel a connection to Israel, I feel that my ancestors came from that region. Its an older injustice than the Nakba in 1948, but its still a people being moved off a land they had lived and loved on for generations by a colonising force (the Romans in 2nd century CE)

We then lived in various harmony and disharmony throughout the world. In some places we were ghettoised. There were organised killings of us, and of course the Nazi attrocities. And throughout that time, including the build up to and most of the Second World War we were on our own. The RAF never bombed the train lines to Aushwitz, never destroyed the gas chambers despite UK Jewry pleading with them. Jewish refugees were turned back at Allied borders. Of course the 2nd WW victors were happy to set up the state of Israel - they wanted a "solution" to the problem of Jews being in Europe as much as Hitler did.

Of course we feel on our own, aggressive and like we have to brutally defend ourselves especially when "helpful" people on the left do not take the time to educate themselves on what Israelis and Jews internationally feel. How is it for us within the Jewish community to try and raise issues that we should not be so aggressive towards our neighbours when there is so much sentiment that makes moderates feel afraid and take refuge in extreme zionism.

But at the same time as a spiritual Jew I will never support us breaking the commandments we were given by killing and stealing - my G-d would never condone that.

My option? The state of Israel has as much right to exist as any other state ... which is to say no right at all. All states are founded on oppression, persecution and colonisation. But everyone has the right to self determination so long as that does not impinge on another's right to the same.

And I'd love to go back to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem / Al Quds / that bloody city that seems to permanently be the centre of unrest and yet is also beautiful and peaceful and vibrant) because it is as much a part of my heritage as it is those soldiers "guarding" it, but I cannot whilst visiting the Western Wall - that place that breaks me apart with its power whenever I have visited - means that I am direcrly and indirectly supporting the murder of innocent people and creating a fair few more suicide bombers at the same time.

 

[ginger]

Garfield: The 1878 lines? That would be perfect because of course, as usual, you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. You think because there was a greater number of Arabs that it would means a greater amount of land. Guess again. Fact is, outside of some of the coast and the Nablus Plain, Arab settlement was rare. Jews on the other hand, both those that had roots going back 4000 years and those just returning were spread throught the rest of the land. Ergo, the 70 plus percent of total land that was allotted to the Arabs under the 19 Partition would have been given to the Jews.

48 will do? Fine, we can do that as well seeing as the Arabs would have been the ones sacraficing contigious bordersfor greter land allotment. Are you not one of the people continuously harping over contigious borders? Seems you haven';t thought this out too well at all.

You are incredulously ill informed.

I agree that Jews have continuously lived on that land for thousands of years. But we were in the minority for the last couple of thousand, (living peacefully side by side with the Arab/Muslim/Christian/random other populations) and most land was settled by Palestinians even in 48. That's why so many of the old houses eg in Haifa or Yaffo are originally build by Arabs.

There was large scale Jewish migration to Palestine at end of 19th/beginning of 20th Century. And purchase of land by the Jewish migrants. But the majority of land still "belonged" to Arabs (as much as land can belong to anyone! I mean title deeds etc) and there were Arab villages throughout the area. There's still evidence of this even today.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The indiginous population? Bizarre concept! Especially in an area that has as much history of different peoples passing through and settling there.

ture enough but as the map above shows there was a significant level of peoples who had settled there by 1878, who as much as anything can be considered indiginious to that region, including those jewish peoples who never left.

I feel a connection to Israel, I feel that my ancestors came from that region.

i don't think (unless we are talking nutbag dimebar theroists) anyone is saying that jews have no right to be on the land at all...

Its an older injustice than the Nakba in 1948, but its still a people being moved off a land they had lived and loved on for generations by a colonising force (the Romans in 2nd century CE)

this is true however the jews weren't entirely banished from this area many jewish familes stayed and continued to grow, intergrate have families etc etc...

this isn't comparible with the nakba, sorry it isn't... the destruction created in that time was not the same as some people didn't remain (except in occupied jeruselam) they were forced out shot at for daring to return to collect their clothes...

We then lived in various harmony and disharmony throughout the world. In some places we were ghettoised. There were organised killings of us, and of course the Nazi attrocities. And throughout that time, including the build up to and most of the Second World War we were on our own. The RAF never bombed the train lines to Aushwitz, never destroyed the gas chambers despite UK Jewry pleading with them. Jewish refugees were turned back at Allied borders. Of course the 2nd WW victors were happy to set up the state of Israel - they wanted a "solution" to the problem of Jews being in Europe as much as Hitler did.

again i beleive this is true too the level of persucution however isn't just rallied against the jewish faith but against anyone considered to be less than european, look at the coloiseation done by all european countries in the 19th and 20th centries for refference....

Of course we feel on our own, aggressive and like we have to brutally defend ourselves especially when "helpful" people on the left do not take the time to educate themselves on what Israelis and Jews internationally feel.

i'm not sure what you mean by this the majority here indeed the majority of the peace protestors and organiseations i work with are jewish, isreali or a mixture a couple of them are musilim but by and a large the bigger ones are all predominatly jewish just as the larger percentage of posters on this forum are... to say that people on the left don't understand international jewish feeling is to suruptiously say if you don't support isreal you are anti semetic, which is clearly not true. it would be fairer to say a large percentage of those on the left do not consider the actions of the isreali state or it's supporters as equitable or appropreate nor could it be said that isreal is the sum total of representation of world jewry.

How is it for us within the Jewish community to try and raise issues that we should not be so aggressive towards our neighbours when there is so much sentiment that makes moderates feel afraid and take refuge in extreme zionism.

this is merely excusing the situation isn't it?

so what are the refusniks doing if not the very thing which you claim would leave them into zionism... it simply isn't a case of either or but more a case of better education leads to better more informed choices...

But at the same time as a spiritual Jew I will never support us breaking the commandments we were given by killing and stealing - my G-d would never condone that.

good i'm sure every muslim would say the same thing, however saying that it's spritually wrong and as a caveate to the previous para is not really justification.

My option? The state of Israel has as much right to exist as any other state ... which is to say no right at all. All states are founded on oppression, persecution and colonisation. But everyone has the right to self determination so long as that does not impinge on another's right to the same.

true enough.

And I'd love to go back to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem / Al Quds / that bloody city that seems to permanently be the cause of unrest and yet is also beautiful and peaceful and vibrant) because it is as much a part of my heritage as it is those soldiers "guarding" it, but I cannot whilst visiting the Western Wall - that place that breaks me apart with its power whenever I have visited - means that I am direcrly and indirectly supporting the murder of innocent people and creating a fair few more suicide bombers at the same time.

it's a great city, and there is no reason not to go back but perhaps not for religous reasons why not help make isreal into the country you'd want it to be than ostricise it becuase it isn't as you wish it at present.

there are many peoples who can benifit from informed and intelligent conversaiton and help...

welcome tot he boards btw

 

[rachamim18]

Ginger: Actually, they are very useful because the pioneering study, if you had looked into it, dealt with male lines. Your belief that it is useless because of matrilineal descent does not make any sense unless only females were considered Jewish. With any closed off population you will have maternal AND paternal markers.

With the Y marker though, there is proof of an unbroken chain dating to the First Temple period. Please examine the studies and see if you feel the same.

There have always been conversions. Still, that does not change the fact that Jews, until the last 150 years, almost always married other Jews. Unless Jews had been faced with mass conversions, the fact that converts enterted the gene pool would have little effect on the baseline. There has never been a mass conversion to Judiasim [if you argue Khazars please understand that only the monarchy and SOME of the court converted].

Black Jews? Who would have thought [sic]? Look, that has no bearing whatsoever. In fact, the original Jews were a dark skinned [Semite] people. We have light complexions among us from other bloodlines, not the opposite. Still, the facts are what they are as proved by some 3 dozen peer reviewed studies dealing with the genetic connection between Jews.

Yes, rape has been a tool used against Jews, at many times during the Jews' 4000 year history.

If you had bothered to read MY posts entirely [as opposed to just listening to what other posters claim they say], you would find that I acknowledged the fact that cranium dimensions have no use whatsover in ascertaining whether or not one is a Jew. Please read my posts completely before taking issue with them. One thing that I DID CLAIM was useful, were fingerprint indexes. If you would like to argue that one, ready when you are.

Before taking a stand, you have to know what you are standing for. You point is that Jews have been raped? Intermarried? Converted TO ? YES TO ALL. Yoru point is that Jews have many different physical characteristics? YES AGAIN. So do Puerto Ricans and all other Hispanics but that does not negate their seprarateness as a people OR their genetic connection to each other. Finally, you argued a point that I never made.

AGAIN: The Jews are a people with a genetic connection to the land of Israel, as has been proven in a myriad of peer reviwed studies. I have outlined a few of those studies in archived threads here if anyone actually cares about anything other than arguing.

[Edited for spelling and spacing]

 

[rachamim18]

Meow Redux...

Garfield: Nice map, too bad it is not accurate, nor does it represent the entire Mandate [or rather what would becomethe Mandate]. This is what happens when you use partisan sites for your "proof." Should use the Israeli Foreign Ministry to prove my assertions? In fact, I would not even use the Rothschild Censuses simply because a Jewish organisation funded them. I rely on Ottoman documentation for the Otooman period because they frankly could not have cared less about proving or disproving the claim of a people who would not even exist until 1948 [Jew and Arab mind you]. Luckily for both you and I, the Ottoamns were rather efficient administrators and the last years of the emipre were especially well documented. Try looking at it from that non-partisan angle. When a map lists "Zionist colonies" in relation to Jewish villages [and in fact hilariously does not even list a single one], you can generally assume that it is a partisan document. Again: KEY WORD: OTTOMAN.

Ginger: Instead of enlightening me by charitably revealing that I am "incredulously ill informed," try and actually provide some facts. Here are a couple for you: We were NOT "a minority on the land for a couple of thousand of years." The Romans took the land in the 1st Century of the Common Era [AD]. From there Jews still constituted the majority of people living there, well into the Byzantine Era. When the Muslims came in the 700s, they only ruled for a grand total of 23 years. While the population was shifting, Arabs did not really begin to settle there until well into the second half of the Ottoman Era [i.e. last 350 years , dated from our time]. Most in fact migrated there in the early 1800s. Even in the early 1800s however we were the majority in Hafia, Tiberias, Safed,Gaza [all of it, not just the modern abomination known as Gaza City], and more importantly perhaps, Jerusalem.

We "lived peacefully side by side with all other inhabitants of the land?" I guess better not bring up the countless slaughters of Jews by those peace loving neighbours then, huh? You might want ask the Jews of Gaza about that...or Hebron...or Jerusalem...I guess you get my drift.


"Old houses built by Arabs in Haifa and Yaffo." Um, and more [in those two cities] built by Jews. Furthermore, underneath ANY Arab building in ALL of the land alternatively known as both Israel and "Palestine" you will find THOUSANDS OF YEARS of Jewish existence.

"Large scale migrations of Jews to 'Palestine' happneed in the late 19th/early 20th Centuries." So what? They began in 1862 and continue to this day.

Oh! Your point in the preceeding blurb is that even though Jews legally bought land "most of the land belonged to Arabs? " Guess again! Little thing called OTTOMAN EMPIRE. Arabs owned exactly 9% of the land. Many Arabs cultivated Otomman land for consecutive generations which according to Arab custom meant that it was their land...However, in reality that land was deeded to absentee landl-rds who did not care who pretended to own it as long as the very high taxes were collected and profits siphoned off. It was these LEGAL landholders who sold most land claimed by Arabs, and at many times the market value. By the way, until 1917, almost all land sold to Jews was inarable desert or malarial swampland. Jews took that land and , as the cliche goes, made it bloom. Not many of the Arabs cultivating Ottoman land were made homeless by landsales to Jews in any regard.

 

[rachamim18]

Meow,Meow...

Garfield: So, the Roman Exile is not as bad as Nakhba because most Jews did not stay, except in Jerusalem...First of all, the one part of the land where Jews were NOT allowed to stay was Jerusalem. The city was plowed under and salted, then renamed in honour fo a Roman deity. The Jews were not focred out and then shot as they returned for clothes? Figuring as how guns were just a wee bit in the future you are probably correct. However, I would say you really should pay less attention to those fringe sites and instead stick your nose in some actual history books. No Arab was sold into slavery by any Israelis. No Arab was made to watch as his woman had their baby cut of her womb. I can go on and on but safe to say, as usual, you haven't a clue.

The "Jewish faith?" Um, I suggest you actually lookj into the matter because neither Hitler nor HAMAS is checking people's synagogue affiliations. They kill Jews, not religionists.

Most posters here are Jewish? Excuse me if I don't care. I do not think you have a clue but it is inconsequential anway.


"Better education leades to more informed choices." Nonsense. Most of the 9/11 hijackers had degrees. So what. Same thing in all extremist groups from all parts of the world. Education has nothing at all to do with common sense.

 

[ginger]

this isn't comparible with the nakba, sorry it isn't... the destruction created in that time was not the same as some people didn't remain (except in occupied jeruselam) they were forced out shot at for daring to return to collect their clothes...

There was a genuine destruction of the Jewish people by the Romans. eg the Romans destroyed the Temple (where Al Aqsa stands now) and it stands firm in Jewish folk memory.

Please don't think for one second I am supporting any persecution of Palestinians by Israelis, or anyone else.

again i beleive this is true too the level of persucution however isn't just rallied against the jewish faith but against anyone considered to be less than european, look at the coloiseation done by all european countries in the 19th and 20th centries for refference....

Aye, but there has been a particular persecution of Jewish people within Europe possibly due to Jews being a very early immigrant population that never assimilated due to having strong cultural and religious beliefs. The RC church has always had a special intolerance of Jews.

i'm not sure what you mean by this the majority here indeed the majority of the peace protestors and organiseations i work with are jewish, isreali or a mixture a couple of them are musilim but by and a large the bigger ones are all predominatly jewish just as the larger percentage of posters on this forum are... to say that people on the left don't understand international jewish feeling is to suruptiously say if you don't support isreal you are anti semetic, which is clearly not true. it would be fairer to say a large percentage of those on the left do not consider the actions of the isreali state or it's supporters as equitable or appropreate nor could it be said that isreal is the sum total of representation of world jewry.

I am not at all saying that if you don't support Israel you're anti semitic. And I wasn't just talking about you. I was saying its a really complex picture and its important to understand where those 18 year old soldiers in IDF/IOF uniform are coming from if we want to find any kind of real solution.

I'm happy that the majority of those you work with are Jewish/Israeli. However the huge majority of Jews I meet in my local Jewish community and in Israel have no faith that the Arabs and the rest of the world are to be trusted in any way whatsoever. They believe we must be strong and aggressive in order to avoid being attacked again. It is very hard to argue with someone who feels so defensive and like a cornered rat. I no it wil sound strange but most Jews and Israelis genuinely feel surrounded and like the weaker party! I know Israel is the only M.E. state with nuclear weapons. I know Israel has a massive army and is supplied with weapons by the world's only current superpower. It bears no more resemblance to the truth to say Israel needs to be aggressively defensivbe than to say USA needed to defend itself by attacking Iraq! But until Israelis and Jews stop feeling under attack they will continue to support Israeli state terrorism in their name.

it's a great city, and there is no reason not to go back but perhaps not for religous reasons why not help make isreal into the country you'd want it to be than ostricise it becuase it isn't as you wish it at present.

I am planning on going back, but as I was deported on my last visit its going to require more complexity...

welcome tot he boards btw

Cheers.

Garfield: Nice map, too bad it is not accurate, nor does it represent the entire Mandate [or rather what would becomethe Mandate]. This is what happens when you use partisan sites for your "proof." Should use the Israeli Foreign Ministry to prove my assertions? In fact, I would not even use the Rothschild Censuses simply because a Jewish organisation funded them.

bollocks - I've seen an almost identical map at the israel state history museum in Yerushalayim!

I rely on Ottoman documentation for the Otooman period because they frankly could not have cared less about proving or disproving the claim of a people who would not even exist until 1948 [Jew and Arab mind you]. Luckily for both you and I, the Ottoamns were rather efficient administrators and the last years of the emipre were especially well documented. Try looking at it from that non-partisan angle. When a map lists "Zionist colonies" in relation to Jewish villages [and in fact hilariously does not even list a single one], you can generally assume that it is a partisan document. Again: KEY WORD: OTTOMAN.

As you are aware the term Zionist is only used as a dirty word by those who are against it. The 19th century CE zionist movement explicitly called /themselves/ zionist and would have labelled a map identically, whether you agree with the content or not. The use of the term "zionist colonies" in no way shows it to be pro or anti zionism.

Ginger: Instead of enlightening me by charitably revealing that I am "incredulously ill informed," try and actually provide some facts. Here are a couple for you: We were NOT "a minority on the land for a couple of thousand of years." The Romans took the land in the 1st Century of the Common Era [AD]. From there Jews still constituted the majority of people living there, well into the Byzantine Era. When the Muslims came in the 700s, they only ruled for a grand total of 23 years. While the population was shifting, Arabs did not really begin to settle there until well into the second half of the Ottoman Era [i.e. last 350 years , dated from our time]. Most in fact migrated there in the early 1800s.

*yawn*

Not even most Israeli academics would agree with you and I'm certainly not going to bother my arse arguing. You're being disingenuous with a lot of what you're saying, either that or you really have been very narrowly reading incredibly extreme versions of history. I might just as well quote stuff I read from David Irving and say thats history.

We "lived peacefully side by side with all other inhabitants of the land?" I guess better not bring up the countless slaughters of Jews by those peace loving neighbours then, huh? You might want ask the Jews of Gaza about that...or Hebron...or Jerusalem...I guess you get my drift.

Again - thats simply not historically accurate. Muslim countries have historically been the safest places for Jewish people - we fled to them from Christian ones throughout Europe. Never met an Iraqi or Morrocan Jew? Their families were safe there until after there was a backlash /after/ 1948. The Jewish families who continued living in Palestine from the diaspora / destruction of the Temple by the Romans until the modern Zionist movement were in a minority and couldn't have stayed without the acceptance by the majority Muslim population.

The Samaritans, ok they're weirdly Jewish, but they /are/ more Jewish than Muslim still live in perfect safety within Palestinian territory.

Muslims are commanded in the Q'ran to allow all people of the book - Jews and X'tians to live peacefully within their land.

"Old houses built by Arabs in Haifa and Yaffo." Um, and more [in those two cities] built by Jews. Furthermore, underneath ANY Arab building in ALL of the land alternatively known as both Israel and "Palestine" you will find THOUSANDS OF YEARS of Jewish existence.

Not arguing with you there.

"Large scale migrations of Jews to 'Palestine' happneed in the late 19th/early 20th Centuries." So what? They began in 1862 and continue to this day.

Nor there.

Oh! Your point in the preceeding blurb is that even though Jews legally bought land "most of the land belonged to Arabs? " Guess again! Little thing called OTTOMAN EMPIRE. Arabs owned exactly 9% of the land. Many Arabs cultivated Otomman land for consecutive generations which according to Arab custom meant that it was their land...However, in reality that land was deeded to absentee landl-rds who did not care who pretended to own it as long as the very high taxes were collected and profits siphoned off. It was these LEGAL landholders who sold most land claimed by Arabs, and at many times the market value. By the way, until 1917, almost all land sold to Jews was inarable desert or malarial swampland. Jews took that land and , as the cliche goes, made it bloom. Not many of the Arabs cultivating Ottoman land were made homeless by landsales to Jews in any regard.

No - couldn't care less who had paper "rights" to that land. And I agree that Jews have a historical connection to that land, just as the Palestinians do. Hence I'm doing this kinda double handed dual thing with you and Garfield's Cat - you'll just have to imagine the Zorro style guitar strumming in the background.