What is wrong with border controls?

[TonkaToy]

Durrrrrrr!




Interesting choice of words: touch of the White Man's Burden if I'm not mistaken.

Oh goody. We're getting somewhere. So you understand that the UK can't solve the humanitarian crisis you speak of. While the world we live in is a pretty sick place, we need border controls so we can cope with what we have already.

 

[TonkaToy]

What's the purpose of forced repatriation, of immigration control, other than the exclusion of individual men and women deemed undesirable by the state?

Automatically, some people become citizens with rights while others become shuttlecocks to be bounced from one state to another.

Sounds purty dam racist to me.

Which people can and can't become UK citizens has fuck all to do with race.

 

[Pigeon]

Oh goody. We're getting somewhere. So you understand that the UK can't solve the humanitarian crisis you speak of. While the world we live in is a pretty sick place, we need border controls so we can cope with what we have already.

"We"?

 

[xenon]

I think Dissident Junk has made some excelent points there.

immigration has stretched resources in many towns around the UK. Slough for example. It is true that we in the richer countries should be working for the improvement of economic conditions in other countries. Maybe something like a minumum waige in the EU. Extremely difficult I grant you.

meanwhile immigration has to be managed so resources can be shared properly.

 

[Pigeon]

Which people can and can't become UK citizens has fuck all to do with race.

Yet you still need to talk about the "mainly white"'s population's needs to shield itself from the problems of the "mainly brown" world.

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

PROVE to me that forced repatriations are racist, they are no such thing.

Maybe not racist in the sense of prejedice directed at one set of people on the basis of skin colour but certainly cruel and rabidly authoratarian. Added to this is the fact that anyone who has called for this tends to be largely speaking of non-white people when they call for forced repatriation.

 

[xenon]

forced repatriation.

This is a bit of a red herring though. no one sensible is talking about that are they. This is a side show to the issue of managing immigration. Which yes. Means limitting it.

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

Originally Posted by mk12
Do the leftists here who argue for workers' control of their workplace/community believe this should extend to immigration? If not, who decides?

Interesting point. I think the only acceptable solution is to have working class control over all aspects of life including immigration. However this prospect is a long way away and would require the breaking of the states authority so really is in the realm of semantics at the moment. The key point about all of this is re-establishing effective trade union activities in the work place and working class self confidence.

 

[Pigeon]

forced repatriation.

This is a bit of a red herring though. no one sensible is talking about that are they. This is a side show to the issue of managing immigration. Which yes. Means limitting it.

"Managed migration". "Firm but fair" controls. Blah blah blah.

All a load of guff, hot air and bureaucratic sophistry to disguise the fact that the agenda of immigration control is the expulsion of the immigrant from the ranks of humanity.

 

[tbaldwin]

Ah, well- best not answer it then, eh?



So "the point" is whatever you choose it to be at any given time. Bit of a Lewis Carroll fan, are we?

Oddly enough, mind, I though of you the other day watching a channel 4 news report about "illegal" immigrants travelling from Africa to the Canary Islands. Those fortunate enough to actually survive the journey end up locked in a detention centre built to hold 300 but actually housing something like 1600. They're literally lying on top of each other. And each and every one of them was adamant that, in the same circumstances, they'd do it again, control or no control.

So forget about some hypothetical humanitarian disaster: deal with the one we've got now.

Dealing with the problem we have now only a prize prat would think the answer lies in making it easier for people from poorer countries to get to rich ones..Its idiotic in the extreme.....
The problem is worldwide inequality and taking the skilled workers poorer countries need most can only make the problem worse.

We need International Labour rules that multinationals are forced to sign up to and reparations.

 

[xenon]

"Managed migration". "Firm but fair" controls. Blah blah blah.

All a load of guff, hot air and bureaucratic sophistry to disguise the fact that the agenda of immigration control is the expulsion of the immigrant from the ranks of humanity.

Not really no. Sensible immigration control by a democratic government is about managing resources. Forced repatriation has always been used by nationalist dictators. They do not come from the same mindset.

 

[In Bloom]

Do the leftists here who argue for workers' control of their workplace/community believe this should extend to immigration? If not, who decides?

It should do, but the issue for me isn't whether we should be "allowed" as a class to make the decision, it's which decision is better for us.

 

[xenon]

"We need International Labour rules that multinationals are forced to sign up to and reparations."

This would be the aim. People should come to the UK because they want to. Not forced to.

Until that happens though as it stands, you need to have some effective controls on how many peple come into the country.

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

We need International Labour rules that multinationals are forced to sign up to and reparations.

That's not going to happen I think. Mass migration is a fairly modern phenomenon as a result of many things. Transportation is easier to obtain for one. Someone mentioned there were no immigration laws before 1902 and this is true but you have to bear in mind that as capitalism spread to every corner of the world and impoverished many people they look for alternatives to their current situation. I've met a few migrant labourers where I work, many are trying to raise money by working temporarily here then going back home where the cash will be worth more. The question regarding immigration cannot be separated an understanding of the process that created it. Capitalism needs a pool of cheap labour that can be hyper-exploited and used as an excuse for driving down wages. What is needed is a strong working class movement that can defend itself from these attacks. If big business was forced to pay regular rates to migrant labour then you'd soon see the government change its tune on immigration.

 

[Pigeon]

The problem is worldwide inequality

Yes it is. And only a prize prat could think that would in any way be alleviated by stroger border controls - still less claim that such controls presented something even resembling an "internationalist" or "socialist" solution.

and taking the skilled workers poorer countries need most can only make the problem worse.

Blah blah fucking blah. The people I'm talking about are not skilled workers, you tool.

We need International Labour rules that multinationals are forced to sign up to and reparations.

But until then, let's create an undocumented underclass right here, right now.In the name of socialism, yet.

 

[Pigeon]

Not really no. Sensible immigration control by a democratic government is about managing resources.

Suger the pill how you want. You'll end up with what Hannah Arendt described after the introduction of immigration controls to deal with the Jewish "problem":

Once they had left their homeland they remained homeless, once they had left their state they became stateless, once they were deprived of their human rights they beame rightless, the scum of the earth.

 

[tbaldwin]

Pigeon do you think that the UK should let anyone and everyone in that wants to come here?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its fairly obvious that if you make something harder to do less people will do it.

Fine, but how do you "make things harder"?
You can enact tougher legislation until the cows come home, grow old and bloody well die, but unless you match the legislation with personnel at "ground level" (rather than cutting them as every government in the past 30 years have, despite their tough talk) then you haven't got a hope in hell.

At the other end of the equation, the most developing countries can do is make "handcuff" deals with their professionals. You can't detain someone against their will, even if their will goes against what's best for their country.

So blather on about immigration controls all you like, it won't make any difference, same as it hasn't anywhere in the "developed world" except relatively closed societies like Japan.

 

[Pigeon]

Pigeon do you think that the UK should let anyone and everyone in that wants to come here?

baldwin, do you think the UK should invest money in detention centres where surplus humanity can be incarcerated indefinitely without trial? Or issue documents such as Guidelines on the Use of Immigration Detainees under Escort, which permits the use of rigid bar handcuffs, ankle straps and such instructions as "an escort chain may be used when handcuffs have been authorised and the detainee needs the toilet" and allows for the shackling of mentally disordered detainees?

Do you approve of the use of mechanical restraints, including leg irons? Do you approve of the use of force, including mechanical restraints, on children?

Because when you advocate immigration control, that is precisely the degree of barbarism you find yourself buying into.

 

[tbaldwin]

Fine, but how do you "make things harder"?

Not allowing people to work,not giving them housing,more immigration officers etc etc....I think you already know the answer to the question,dont you?

 

[Pigeon]

Fine, but how do you "make things harder"?

See below.

 

[tbaldwin]

baldwin, do you think the UK should invest money in detention centres where surplus humanity can be incarcerated indefinitely without trial? Or issue documents such as Guidelines on the Use of Immigration Detainees under Escort, which permits the use of rigid bar handcuffs, ankle straps and such instructions as "an escort chain may be used when handcuffs have been authorised and the detainee needs the toilet" and allows for the shackling of mentally disordered detainees?

Do you approve of the use of mechanical restraints, including leg irons? Do you approve of the use of force, including mechanical restraints, on children?

Because when you advocate immigration control, that is precisely the degree of barbarism you find yourself buying into.

You answer my question first and i will answer this one.

 

[Pigeon]

Not allowing people to work,not giving them housing,

I can see the banners of baldwin's Socialist InternationAL now:

For the creation of a surplus underclass!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not allowing people to work,not giving them housing,more immigration officers etc etc....I think you already know the answer to the question,dont you?

We already don't allow people to work, we already don't give them housing (that's down to the NASS iirc), and you're as likely to see more immigration officers as you are to get a handjob off the pope because it serves the purposes of big business for there to be an available pool of cheap illegal labour.

Got any more ways of "making things harder" that aren't already being done?
From where I'm standing you're just chuntering out the same old bollocks rather than coming up with anything approaching a solution, so come on, get your finger out. I'm sure someone of your wisdom and principles can come up with some worthwhile proposals that haven't already been thought of decades ago.

 

[Pigeon]

You answer my question first and i will answer this one.

Your question wasn't a good one. Apparently that's the rules.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I can see the banners of baldwin's Socialist InternationAL now:

For the creation of a surplus underclass!

Not so much "creation" as "supplementation" though, is it?

 

[Pigeon]

We already don't allow people to work, we already don't give them housing (that's down to the NASS iirc), and you're as likely to see more immigration officers as you are to get a handjob off the pope ....

To be fair, there are now more immigration officers, simply because everyone, from welfare workers, to health professionals to employers totrade unions becomes co-opted into the immigration control discourse. Which is nice.

 

[tbaldwin]

We already don't allow people to work, we already don't give them housing (that's down to the NASS iirc), and you're as likely to see more immigration officers as you are to get a handjob off the pope because it serves the purposes of big business for there to be an available pool of cheap illegal labour.

Got any more ways of "making things harder" that aren't already being done?
From where I'm standing you're just chuntering out the same old bollocks rather than coming up with anything approaching a solution, so come on, get your finger out. I'm sure someone of your wisdom and principles can come up with some worthwhile proposals that haven't already been thought of decades ago.

Oh dear.....Playing to the gallery again.....

You know that whole post is bullshit. There are hundreds of thousands of economic migrants in the UK legally working in Cafes,Hospitals etc etc.
Its govt policy to let them.....You might have noticed that its not a policy i agree with.....And you might also notice that different countries(even in the eu) and different political parties have different policies.

 

[Pigeon]

Not so much "creation" as "supplementation" though, is it?

My mistake. I can never quite follow the logic of balders' arguments, to be fair.

 

[ViolentPanda]

To be fair, there are now more immigration officers, simply because everyone, from welfare workers, to health professionals to employers totrade unions becomes co-opted into the immigration control discourse. Which is nice.

Yeah, but I'm not talking about the co-optees (many of whom go out of their way to subvert and/or sidestep the discourse around immgration as it pertains to their jobs) I'm talking about INS employees.