What is trade unionism and why it is important

[butchersapron]

Pal, the w/c signfier par excellence. A suggestion of lathe turned masculinity too.

Hey, nice one you've just decided to make the claim you were trying to make me allow you to all along. With a 'seem' put in to cover your back. Oddly enough you're replying to a post in which i argue the opposite that withon the range of fucnrtions that unions have within the current system that more radical approaches should be argued for/imposed.

OK, you don't think unions are inherntly reformist now (then despite explictly aarguing that they are in the post above) and that they're open to be captured by revolutionary forces - can you give me some examples of this happeneing? I did ask above a few times but you were busy.

It's all about the right leadership isn't it spion?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

blind desire to get one over...

You're far from the only recepient of that. It could say more about Comrade Apron than those who s/he always seeks to denounce.

 

[butchersapron]

Blind desire. Great stuf. The 'opponent' is pathological - it's not the massive gaps in your logic, your posts and your general demeanour. It's a psychological defiency in those who laugh at your odd claims.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Blind desire. Great stuf. The 'opponent' is pathological - it's not the massive gaps in your logic, your posts and your general demeanour. It's a psychological defiency in those who laugh at your odd claims.

Oh, you're far from the worst offenders . If only so many of my claims weren't odd. Last night you posted a very good classic marxist analysis somewhere, and I got to thinking (again) Isnt a ruling class that conspires to exploit a "conspiracy"? It happens to be a conspiracy "theory" that is strongly rooted in truth, as too many may sadly turn out to be.

 

[durruti02]

.. In other words, TUs arise as reformist and bureacratised organisation - a charaterisation you say you agree with. And I suggest that the rank and file be split from that bureacracy which tends to deliver it to the bosses...

no this is fundamnetally wrong .. TUs do NOT arise as you say .. but imho as i put it in the OP .. yes they do get bureucratised .. but so do all social groups ..

 

[durruti02]

...or

Outside and Against the Unions

" ..This is the question lefties and trade unionists always ask of us weirdoes who are for workers' struggles but against the unions. The short answer is: we're not proposing an "alternative" to the unions. If you want to negotiate the rate of exploitation and reinforce working class corporatism the unions are an excellent way of doing it. Just like the cops, union hacks are doing a difficult job and doing it very well under the circumstances. That's why we hate them.

A more relevant question is: "How should we organise in work-places to fight for our immediate needs and undermine capitalism?". The short answer to this is: the same way we organise anywhere else. We are not interested in representing anybody but in building up groups and networks of activists who want to escalate the class war by whatever means are necessary. The links we develop between class struggle militants now will be useful when mass struggles do break out, in terms of spreading and coordinating struggles, circulating information, seizing resources and so on. In should be clear from what we've said so far that this process can only take place outside and against the unions. How many more times do union officials have to promise to grass up workers involved in sabotage to the police before this becomes obvious to every class struggle militant? "

imho this is a pretty infantile attack on Dave Douglas's position .. and tbh i have NEVER met anyone who has done more than a years work who supports this ^^ position .. and i have met loads of people who USED to support this position who, when they had to work, to support themselves and their families, as most of us have to do, quickly chnaged position to understanding TUs

i would love that we could be constantly creating what they suggest .. but maybe i am a 'sell out' for not being in a constant state of war! lol tbh essentially they have misunderstood what TUs are .. we need to do both support TUs and seek to go beyond

 

[butchersapron]

To be fair fair that whole debate was pretty infantile on both sides with stupid accusations flon both sides. That the context it took place in and the condtiins it took for granted are so different to today tells its own story...

 

[durruti02]

the context i understood was that most who supportted the trade unions had been inwork .. and those who attacked unionism had never .. (now maybe work is just shite and we should entirely reject it) .. but i think that context tells the story basically

 

[butchersapron]

It's not true at all though d. Not at all.

 

[nino_savatte]

I iz a fully paid up member of two trade unions, so I am considerably more trade-unionistic than yeow!

I'm a member of 3, so there!

How many do you belong to, durutti?

 

[durruti02]

It's not true at all though d. Not at all.

what isn't?

 

[butchersapron]

That the people involved in the long running debate with Dave D ( that started well before OATU) had never worked. The 'context' we were talking about.

 

[durruti02]

That the people involved in the long running debate with Dave D ( that started well before OATU) had never worked. The 'context' we were talking about.

ok, some of the ones i knew certainly hadn't!

 

[butchersapron]

Lots of teachers though!

 

[durruti02]

Lots of teachers though!

aah .. maybe some prejudice on my part coming in here .. teaching is very hard but i think is a differrent type of individual labour!

 

[audiotech]

aah .. maybe some prejudice on my part coming in here

I rest my case.