What is the problem with British football?

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Do you think there is a case for central contacts like in cricket?

No I don't think so. The system in cricket is based on the facts that a) international players spend most of their time playing international cricket. They might only play the odd game for their county, b) international cricket is the main revenue generator and internationals get paid the most and c) international cricket is undeniably the highest level of the game.

None of those things is true for football.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Something I've wondered for a while now, but feels a bit too reductionist (and bloody patronising, to be honest) - is the average British supporter just not football-savvy enough to appreciate what makes a successful team?

A "good player" in Britain is one who attacks fast, tackles hard, and has many other very easy to spot attributes. It's all stuff you can see very easily, without having to have a particularly good understanding of football or tactics. The idea of creating space, working towards a gameplan that can't be executed in 20 seconds, bringing on a defensive player in order to become more attacking... it all seems to confound us.

If a player isn't obviously busting a lung and trying to score with every move he makes then the crowd get on his back, desperate for him to "get a move on and do something". And so, those are the players we get, the ones who are very good at running around, but not so great at winning football matches.

 

[stavros]

One other thing that could be considered is the competition football has from other sports in the UK, which may or may not be replicated in some form in other countries. Whilst football is by the far the most popular and commercial sport here, there's also both rugby codes and cricket with sizeable followings. Ian Botham played professional football and could well have made a decent career out of it, and Gary Lineker was captain of Leicestershire boys team, to give but two examples. Johnny Wilkinson's left peg I'm sure could've perhaps put some decent crosses into Shearer, Owen, Rooney et al.

 

[scalyboy]

I think the problem is that England always let the other side score more goals than them. If they stopped that, and instead scored more goals than their opponents, then they'd win more.

Orang Utan you should be the next manager! #RoyOut

 

[imposs1904]

Isn't the performance of the English team also a matter of the luck of the draw? If they'd started in a different group, and had initial matches against weaker teams, the outcome might have been different in the early going at least.

Thank you Johnny:

 

[Lord Camomile]

We did get through that group, to be fair

 

[scalyboy]

Thank you Johnny:

Gah, the 2014 group was a relatively easy one to progress from, at least in second place. But Hackney Marshes-style Sunday league defending is always going to make things difficult...

 

[scalyboy]

'Arry:
"When I was at Tottenham and full internationals came around, two or three players didn't want to play.
"They did not want to go and play for England. They'd come to me 10 days before the game and say: 'Gaffer get me out of the game because I don't want to play in that game'."

I must admit I find this attitude shocking - am I naive?
He goes on to say: it can sometimes be because these players look at the stick England players may get, after the inevitable failure to deliver - and wonder whether it's worth the agg?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

We did get through that group, to be fair

Tied with the US, I see.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Mistakes were made.

 

[ska invita]

I think the problem is that England always let the other side score more goals than them. If they stopped that, and instead scored more goals than their opponents, then they'd win more.

Hmmm interesting. I think you'd agree with Frank Lampard who in a TV interview today replied to the question "What would make English football better" with "winning more". Im not convinced myself

 

[ska invita]

Mistakes were made.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Not sure what that is, but these are some of the thing's I would implement....

A) Changes in the way the FA is run, there needs to be more ground level contact between the FA and grassroots football one that is consulting and not over policing. There is little positive contact that I see between FA and grass roots clubs.

B) A football tax on the wealthy clubs to help fund grassroots

C) An independent body to run grass roots football in order to give a voice and a better collective input to the FA. This is something I have seriously considered setting up.

D) In the pro game only one transfer window and pre season

E) In the pro game only one football manager per season, no sackings no resignations. Unless there are exceptional circumstances.

F) An approved quality standard on all football equipment used in organised kids football particularly footballs.

G) A new three tier coaching level/badge for kids football split between 5-9 and 10-12 and youth modules and with stronger emphasis on attitude behaviour and sports psychology together with compulsory refresher courses at the end of each season. There should also be a licensing system for football coaches in kids football, one that can be revoked if they misbehave. At present you have a CRB check and possibly an absolutely useless FA level 1 badge.

H) A uniformed and consolidated set of league rules for all grassroots football (at present there are many different sets)

I) A separate wandering 'observer' to monitor coaches performances and parent behaviour at match day together with match day grading for the coaches from the match referee.

J) A don't scream leaflet given out at kids football matches and a sign in procedure for all adults who want to attend kids football matches. Zero tolerance policy on abusive behaviour.

K) Technical areas for coaches where parents/adults are forbidden to stay in. Coaches also should have identifiable attire to highlight who is in control of the team.

L) Ban professional clubs from taking on under ten kids into their academies. They ruin many kids confidence when they churn them over.

M) A sponsorship/Marketing pack designed to assist clubs to get multiple business sponsorships.

N) Every club to have their own website with clear details on who runs it, who coaches and a club policy and mission statement.

O) Many More all weather pitches.

I have no contact with junior football at all, but reading that and your other post made for depressing reading.

One question, has the abuse from parents watching the game got better? I seem to remember there were efforts to stamp down on it, but it still seems a big problem...

 

[thriller]

We do produce good players. It's simply because we don't want to play as a GB team. If FIFA somehow forced us to abandon this stupid separate association thing, we would do much better.

 

[Gingerman]

Problem is that the Premiership is seen as the be all and end all,come August when it starts England will be forgotten about.....

 

[Bonfirelight]

i can't remember which book it was (why england lose?), but I believe statistically england perform about as well as they should.
this World Cup was a bad one, but there you go. maybe next time eh?

 

[Batboy]

I have no contact with junior football at all, but reading that and your other post made for depressing reading.

One question, has the abuse from parents watching the game got better? I seem to remember there were efforts to stamp down on it, but it still seems a big problem...

In my view (I've been involved for 8/9 years now) it is the same. There is no real will to confront or police this in any meaningful way despite all the messages, TV adverts and mandates from the FA.

And it is not just the parents, it is coaches too. I have had some terrible incidents with opposing team coaches/managers one of whom quite frankly should not be working with kids. This was in the last three months. It can be very ugly.

The problem as I see it, is the leagues have ineffective means and resources to combat the behaviour issues, if they start kicking teams out that affects their revenue and also punishes the kids. There is fear of confrontation. There is an interlock on all the issues I've raised. A Community Clubs Association would be a big help, obviously if run independently and well.

Much of the problem of abuse from both parents and coaches/team managers can be quite subtle.

I don't want to paint too pessimistic a picture, because on a brighter note there are some amazing people working in kids football both coaching and otherwise and they are normally volunteers. If had not been for one such guy a young coach who I saw inspiring 10 year olds, I would not of got involved myself, sadly he moved to the US after landing a coaching job in the schools system there.

 

[el-ahrairah]

'Arry:
"When I was at Tottenham and full internationals came around, two or three players didn't want to play.
"They did not want to go and play for England. They'd come to me 10 days before the game and say: 'Gaffer get me out of the game because I don't want to play in that game'."

I must admit I find this attitude shocking - am I naive?
He goes on to say: it can sometimes be because these players look at the stick England players may get, after the inevitable failure to deliver - and wonder whether it's worth the agg?

he's lying.

 

[kidtripod]

I can fully believe him. You have to really see how other countries are to understand that the will for the England team to win just proportionately isn't there. For England there's a lot of huffing and puffing when it goes bad, but in other places when they're on top it's complete mania. Given the Argentinians I couldn't avoid last night you'd have thought their terrible 1-0 scrape through was the full thing done and dusted.

I'm in Montreal, and the Stanley Cup playoffs period here dwarves anything you will see in terms of mass support in the UK for football, even during a major tournament when they are in the knockout stages.

England needs to ask deep questions about why other nations can pick teams involving significant numbers of supposedly lesser players from the very same leagues but achieve results greater than the sum of their parts. Redknapp looks close to the point, but I fear Hodgson and Gerrard's reaction to it is diversionary nonsense.

 

[Batboy]

One other thing that could be considered is the competition football has from other sports in the UK, which may or may not be replicated in some form in other countries. Whilst football is by the far the most popular and commercial sport here, there's also both rugby codes and cricket with sizeable followings. Ian Botham played professional football and could well have made a decent career out of it, and Gary Lineker was captain of Leicestershire boys team, to give but two examples. Johnny Wilkinson's left peg I'm sure could've perhaps put some decent crosses into Shearer, Owen, Rooney et al.

Somebody who is very good at football is very often good at other sports (and visa versa) Dennis Compton and his brother Leslie Compton were the epitome of this playing cricket for Middlesex and Football for Arsenal. Dennis Compton according to my Father was the finest sportsman of all time.
My 14year old son is a very useful player and is good in all positions including goalkeeper he is also fast developing into a very useful golfer. If he wanted to make a career out of one of these he will need to choose to focus on one. If it was up to me I would tell him to choose golf.

It is unlikely that we will ever see people competing professionally in multiple diverse sports due to the raised standards and demands across all sports.

I don't think the competition from other sports greatly affects football. Spain have good football teams, good golfers and Tennis players, Australia good Rugby, cricket, golfers and swimmers etc

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm in Montreal, and the Stanley Cup playoffs period here dwarves anything you will see in terms of mass support in the UK for football, even during a major tournament when they are in the knockout stages..

The comparison doesn't hold up. The Montreal Canadiens are part of a for-profit league - the NHL, and are more comparable to Manchester United, or Chelsea - not to the England national team.

 

[Batboy]

i can't remember which book it was (why england lose?), but I believe statistically england perform about as well as they should.
this World Cup was a bad one, but there you go. maybe next time eh?

The margins between good and very good, finishing as winners or 4th are often a very fine edge. For me the frustration is within the fundamental core of the game, the financial disjointedness, the mental attitudes etc. England are not an awful team, but we fail to achieve when with a different attitude we could raise the bar quite considerably, as could Wales and Scotland.... with the added benefit of shutting up Ddraig and any of our other Welsh\ Scottish cousins whose sporting pleasure is perversely confined to watching the English fail...

 

[Batboy]

he's lying.

Whilst Mr Redknapp is prone to exaggeration, the core message has some substance and reinforces the problem of abuse and pressure from the touchlines that starts normally at the age of 7 and reaches its crescendo in the national game. Do you remember the stick Robert Green got when he made a mistake playing for England! The media were disgusting in their treatment of him, he was never the same keeper after that.

 

[Batboy]

Something I've wondered for a while now, but feels a bit too reductionist (and bloody patronising, to be honest) - is the average British supporter just not football-savvy enough to appreciate what makes a successful team?

A "good player" in Britain is one who attacks fast, tackles hard, and has many other very easy to spot attributes. It's all stuff you can see very easily, without having to have a particularly good understanding of football or tactics. The idea of creating space, working towards a gameplan that can't be executed in 20 seconds, bringing on a defensive player in order to become more attacking... it all seems to confound us.

If a player isn't obviously busting a lung and trying to score with every move he makes then the crowd get on his back, desperate for him to "get a move on and do something". And so, those are the players we get, the ones who are very good at running around, but not so great at winning football matches.

True... As I've repeatedly said on these boards, a Dutch coach made the comment to me that England play 'Determination Football'.

 

[Bonfirelight]

The margins between good and very good, finishing as winners or 4th are often a very fine edge. For me the frustration is within the fundamental core of the game, the financial disjointedness, the mental attitudes etc.

Football is always fine margins. I think you could argue england had the better of both games, and but for fine margins we could be in the next round already. I agree that there are problems with the game in this country and share your frustrations, but I am tired of the soul searching and hand wringing every 2 years.

 

[Batboy]

Football is always fine margins. I think you could argue england had the better of both games, and but for fine margins we could be in the next round already. I agree that there are problems with the game in this country and share your frustrations, but I am tired of the soul searching and hand wringing every 2 years.

To be honest I'm tired of the inquests too.

The problems in our approach to the game have been known for years. I work voluntarily at the seedbed and I am a bit bored repeating myself.

It isn't rocket science we could improve greatly at most sports simply by injecting common sense and a more quality approach in the way the Germans do (I work in manufacturing it is the same principle there too).

I have a very competitive edge and at the same time I am a great believer in that if you are going to do something or create something etc then aim for the highest standard possible. Collectively as a nation we often don't seem to understand that principle or what it entails to achieve such standards.

The biggest challenge we face is our own psyche, you only have to look around these forums to see what a bunch of awkward obdurate knobheads we can collectively be!

 

[Cheesypoof]

Lack of confidence - England panic when they get the ball, especially after scoring in a match.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Gerrard is considering retiring from Intl fooball- w00t - this is headlines and is sorta indicitive of the baggage these fuckers carry - you dont retire, you just dont get picked any more

 

[el-ahrairah]

good. he's been one of the biggest problems with england for years

 

[sleaterkinney]

Good, they'll never win anything with Hodgson anyway.